: before you cry nerf leona should look at her patch notes, leona is one of thee most nerfed champion in league of legends history, she got nerfed from a solo lane tank into a support. Her kit got gutted so much she cant even solo lane anymore she just a bottom lane baby sitter for the past 5 years.
This comment in itself is not a justification as to why she doesn't need nerfs. I don't care if she gets nerfed every week, if the nerfs she gets don't change much of anything to her overall game play, then the same problems are going to continue to exist. Her kit is over-tuned and loaded with too much CC. That is the issue. Until her kit is downsized or her CC is reduced, then she will always be a problem.
D357R0Y3R (EUW)
: she does and so does fucking xayah nothing changed in high elo, overloaded champions remain overloaded
Yeah they both need 100 percent nerfs lmao.
: So...No mention to her winrate? Just her pickrate? Cool. Then try again once you have the most important stat there. You can't justify a nerf to Cait just by complaining about her kit, mentioning her pickrate, and talking about Rengar mains winrate.
> [{quoted}](name=DuskDaUmbreon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JiUjojWH,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-11-24T00:55:30.353+0000) > > So...No mention to her winrate? Just her pickrate? > > Cool. Then try again once you have the most important stat there. You can't justify a nerf to Cait just by complaining about her kit, mentioning her pickrate, and talking about Rengar mains winrate. Her win rate is at 51 if you want it. Win rates don't mean much of anything in a team game when you have no consistent team. If you play your heart out and play a perfect game, you can still lose if your teammates feed enough or don't make the necessary plays. Also, you could play like trash and get carried by your teammates. There are just too many factors taking place to gauge a champion's gameplay by win rate i.e. team composition, general mood of the team, mistakes made by the players, etc. Here's an example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqDRayzEBhE. The number one trynd goes into "elo hell" and does extremely well. Gets a ton of kills with little deaths and still loses the game. You could blame him for making even one mistake OR maybe winning games isn't in our hands as much as we would like to believe. Win rates are the least important stats when talking about champion game-play. What does a 99 percent win rate champion mean to a player that has a 40 percent win rate? The only thing win rates do is makes people notice certain champions. Since we as the community have deemed 50 percent to be a balanced number, which I disagree with making that the primary reference for balancing, anything outside of 50 is either under-powered or over-powered. I didn't bring up win rates for Cait because I didn't need her win rates to explain why I felt as though she needed a nerf. Again, what does her win rate mean if she wins her lane every game or loses her lane every game? People still complain about Yasuo despite him having 48 percent win rate. Win rates don't entail or explain how a champion performs in a game. I felt it necessary to use win rates for Rengar because I was supporting my claim about how win rates don't mean much of anything.
GreenKnight (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=okamiyasha95,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AQwgxOlZ,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2019-11-23T22:49:43.843+0000) > > Can we stop crying about people crying about her? People are crying about her for a reason ya know. No one's complaining about Janna or Sona anymore because they're a lot more balanced than the current supports. Every champ has some pretty exposed weaknesses like Akali. That doesn't negate or excuse the fact that some things about her are excessive. If we focus on reworks, the reworked champs will be just as if not more broken. She's not broken though. And she is balanced. People are whining because she is new. Just like idiots moaned about Morgana after her idiotic VGU, when her kit barely changed. > > A rework requires the whole champion to be changed. A nerf only requires a certain portion of a champ. Also, to rework champions when the majority of champions aren't balanced is bad for business in the long run. You're going to create a hosh posh of BS that will eventually never get sorted. Dude. I'm against fucking reworks. Try that again.
The way you worded it "focus on those pathetic reworks" made it seem like you cared about reworks. Sorry for the confusion. First off, just because a champion is new doesn't mean they can't be overpowered or over-tuned. Never in the history of a new champion or reworked champion has a champion been balanced at that. It is healthier for game-play to release a new champion that is under-powered and give them the necessary buffs later than release a new champ over-tuned out the gate. Marketing-wise, ti's the opposite since they need a reason to sell their new champ. The same way you can say "She's balanced. She's just new," I can say "She isn't balanced. People just don't know how over-tuned she is because she's new." Learning how to play the match-up and learning what the champ can do are two different processes. I know I can kill her and I've learned how to play against Senna for the most part. Therefore, I no longer need to ban her. However, she is still over-tuned and damn near impossible to deal with. To say she's balanced is to admit that there's nothing wrong with her whatsoever despite various players from iron to challenger saying otherwise.
Corvega (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=okamiyasha95,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AQwgxOlZ,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-11-23T21:33:31.364+0000) > She should not have a heal. Wrong. >Her abilities should only do damage and that's it. She already out damages her ADC in every aspect. So doesn't that mean she should do less damage and still have healing. > She has a root Yes supports have cc as well as some marksmen. >an ability that let's her allies go invisible that also increases their MS They aren't invisible. It's similar to Akali shroud. You know were she is, she is in the middle, and her allies are some where in the small circle. The movement speed is also pretty low. Not a big deal. > a Q poke that's longer than the lane itself with no cast time so dodging it is all about how lucky you are and it does an excessive amount of damage to enemies and turrets. It does have a cast time, which gets lower with attack speed. It also has a high mana cost, and if she is using for damage then she probably isn't using it for healing WHICH IS CALLED A TRADE-OFF. The excessive amount of damage you think its doing is probably a combination of the q damage itself and her passive doing percent current health damage when she attacks and enemy twice, and any other on hits like from {{item:3147}} and {{item:3042}}. > She can stack mist souls which procs a better passive than Thresh. Why are you even comparing these two stacking passives? Thresh's souls gives him stats he wants, and Senna's gives her stats she wants. > A global ult with no cast time? It has a cast time. Should the indicator be more obvious or show up earlier. Yes, I'll give you that. If they are gonna nerf anything it's how much her Q HEALS HERSELF NOT NERF HOW MUCH IT HEALS HER ALLIES, since that combined with fleet foot and other any other healing runes work makes her pretty safe in and out of lane.
> [{quoted}](name=Corvega,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AQwgxOlZ,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2019-11-24T01:15:05.478+0000) > > Wrong. > > So doesn't that mean she should do less damage and still have healing. > > Yes supports have cc as well as some marksmen. > > They aren't invisible. It's similar to Akali shroud. You know were she is, she is in the middle, and her allies are some where in the small circle. The movement speed is also pretty low. Not a big deal. > > It does have a cast time, which gets lower with attack speed. It also has a high mana cost, and if she is using for damage then she probably isn't using it for healing WHICH IS CALLED A TRADE-OFF. The excessive amount of damage you think its doing is probably a combination of the q damage itself and her passive doing percent current health damage when she attacks and enemy twice, and any other on hits like from {{item:3147}} and {{item:3042}}. > > Why are you even comparing these two stacking passives? Thresh's souls gives him stats he wants, and Senna's gives her stats she wants. > > It has a cast time. Should the indicator be more obvious or show up earlier. Yes, I'll give you that. > > If they are gonna nerf anything it's how much her Q HEALS HERSELF NOT NERF HOW MUCH IT HEALS HER ALLIES, since that combined with fleet foot and other any other healing runes work makes her pretty safe in and out of lane. Yes her Q does have a cast time, but it's quite difficult to miss as it's range and AOE is quite large. The time it activates and goes off is also shy of not having a reaction window. Her ult does have a cast time and a visual notification I have realized the mistake in that quote. Onto her abilities. Why does she need just about every ability in the book? She has the utility with her CC, MS boost she gives her allies, and her ability to cloak her allies. She has enough damage as it is. If you nerf her damage, then she would just be useless. Her heals aren't good enough to compensate for the amount of damage you would be taking away. However, that doesn't mean that her healing isn't a problem nor does it mean her heals aren't good enough as they are. They scale with her AD and scale with support items. Her damage is alright is it is because that's all she's good for honestly. Taking her healing away would make her more fair to play against. I'd rather it give her ally a decaying shield than be a heal.
Corvega (NA)
: So your issue is that he exists? > Remove the slow from his E. Support players can just walk up to you, flay you towards them and you're slowed. This allows them to hit their hooks easier since you can't run anywhere. It's also adds a bit of excessiveness in certain situations. It can already displace you either towards an intended target or away from a target. THAT IS HIS ROLE WHAT ELSE IS HE SUPPOSED TO DO
> [{quoted}](name=Corvega,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GlI3tU3A,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-11-24T00:40:53.124+0000) > > So your issue is that he exists? > > THAT IS HIS ROLE WHAT ELSE IS HE SUPPOSED TO DO He has many other abilities in his kit. The displacement is good enough. It doesn't need a slow added on to it.
Draehl (NA)
: Yeah, that's pretty much what he's there for. He's not as tanky as Leona/Naut/etc. Can't heal/shield for any significant amount, and his damage is mediocre. He exists solely to have a crowd-control overloaded kit and chain abilities together to save an ally or enable a kill.
> [{quoted}](name=Draehl,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GlI3tU3A,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-11-24T03:41:02.077+0000) > > Yeah, that's pretty much what he's there for. He's not as tanky as Leona/Naut/etc. Can't heal/shield for any significant amount, and his damage is mediocre. He exists solely to have a crowd-control overloaded kit and chain abilities together to save an ally or enable a kill. I understand that, but like Leona, he's overtuned just a little bit.
: His flat slow is fine, considering the way you described it is him walking up slowly and down smash Just walk away yourself
> [{quoted}](name=Jimmy Rustles,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GlI3tU3A,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-11-23T23:25:37.438+0000) > > His flat slow is fine, considering the way you described it is him walking up slowly and down smash > > Just walk away yourself lol. In those cases, yeah, but when in the act of engaging/disengaging, there's not that much difficulty in landing a hook.
iiGazeii (NA)
: She declares the spot that deals damage for 1.3 seconds. You have that time to walk out of the zone. If she places it in front of you, you can stop moving, and it will miss.
> [{quoted}](name=iiGazeii,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AQwgxOlZ,comment-id=000200010000,timestamp=2019-11-23T22:57:47.919+0000) > > She declares the spot that deals damage for 1.3 seconds. You have that time to walk out of the zone. If she places it in front of you, you can stop moving, and it will miss. I just went into the practice and tried it. It does have a lengthy wind up time and it is visible when after she shoots it. I will take the L on that point.
Comentários de Rioters
iiGazeii (NA)
: Her ult has a huge cast time, plus a short travel time. Her Q also has a cast time, and the area that deals damage is quite thin. Both can be sidestepped.
> [{quoted}](name=iiGazeii,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AQwgxOlZ,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-11-23T21:50:24.436+0000) > > Her ult has a huge cast time, plus a short travel time. Her Q also has a cast time, and the area that deals damage is quite thin. Both can be sidestepped. Her Q hit box is big enough to still hit you even if you are able to see it coming. Her ult hit box is thin but the same way you can side step her ult, she can land her ult. It also heals her allies.
GreenKnight (EUNE)
: She's a support that has pretty exposed weaknesses. She needs to be able to do SOMETHING for her teammates. Can we stop crying about her, for fuck's sake? She's balanced and pretty fun to play. Focus on those pathetic reworks instead.
> [{quoted}](name=GreenKnight,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AQwgxOlZ,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-11-23T21:52:31.987+0000) > > She's a support that has pretty exposed weaknesses. She needs to be able to do SOMETHING for her teammates. > > Can we stop crying about her, for fuck's sake? She's balanced and pretty fun to play. > > Focus on those pathetic reworks instead. Can we stop crying about people crying about her? People are crying about her for a reason ya know. No one's complaining about Janna or Sona anymore because they're a lot more balanced than the current supports. Every champ has some pretty exposed weaknesses like Akali. That doesn't negate or excuse the fact that some things about her are excessive. If we focus on reworks, the reworked champs will be just as if not more broken. A rework requires the whole champion to be changed. A nerf only requires a certain portion of a champ. Also, to rework champions when the majority of champions aren't balanced is bad for business in the long run. You're going to create a hosh posh of BS that will eventually never get sorted. Let me explain it like this: Imagine having a few papers due. Some are due in the next week and others can be turned in 6 months (your mid-term). The ones that are due next week require less work and can be done in a day and the ones due in 6 months require at least two weeks before finalization. What would rather focus on? If you ask me, champions that have already been out for awhile and in a not so broken spot can wait when it comes to the newer and reworked champions that are in the spotlight on players' bad sides.
tyralie (EUW)
: she is weak as hell without a good supp ( so almost 3/4 of the game in ranked ) you nerf her range all other adc crush her for free because she have no attack speed while all other ( except jhin but he have lot of dmg unlike senna ) don't forget the 0.5sec between each aa that make her unable to kite . People cry about senna but bot lane is full of xayah kai sa cait who kill her with almsot no difficulty.( don't forget the cancer ap supp that does more dmg than adc with almost no item ) I love senna adc but she have a lot of weakness : -She is way to dependant of her supp she is a walking target the whole early game -her e is basicaly useless because even if you can't see her you jsut spam skill on the area and mos t of the time its done -her ult is good but take way too long to activate if the other are not stupid they will just move to dodge it -her passive with stack is good but her horrible attack speed ruin it other adc can shoot 2 3 time the time you shoot once.. -you are restricted with almost all adc item : you can't take attack speed item/crit item you MUST go letality no other choice( or maybe trinity but expensive ) She need some change but not a nerf jsut some fix
> [{quoted}](name=tyralie,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AQwgxOlZ,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-11-23T21:50:02.498+0000) > > she is weak as hell without a good supp ( so almost 3/4 of the game in ranked ) you nerf her range all other adc crush her for free because she have no attack speed while all other ( except jhin but he have lot of dmg unlike senna ) don't forget the 0.5sec between each aa that make her unable to kite . > People cry about senna but bot lane is full of xayah kai sa cait who kill her with almsot no difficulty.( don't forget the cancer ap supp that does more dmg than adc with almost no item ) > > I love senna adc but she have a lot of weakness : > -She is way to dependant of her supp she is a walking target the whole early game > -her e is basicaly useless because even if you can't see her you jsut spam skill on the area and mos t of the time its done > -her ult is good but take way too long to activate if the other are not stupid they will just move to dodge it > -her passive with stack is good but her horrible attack speed ruin it other adc can shoot 2 3 time the time you shoot once.. > -you are restricted with almost all adc item : you can't take attack speed item/crit item you MUST go letality no other choice( or maybe trinity but expensive ) > > She need some change but not a nerf jsut some fix At the end of the day, she's a support. She's not an ADC so your statement doesn't help. People take her ADC because she deals THAT much damage and she's new. I guess some people think she's fun to play as an ADC, but she can support and ADC. Having another support who can carry gives her lane a more unfair advantage. However, you are right about her needing the right support which only makes her lane busted. Way too long to activate? You're acting like if an ability doesn't activate as fast as you can blink, it's slow. Her cast time is 1.3 seconds. Other players don't need to be stupid for her to miss. Her user needs to be stupid to miss especially when every other global ult chant takes a lot longer to activate. Even TF has a longer reaction window and he's not a support. Describing her stats is good, but how it looks on paper and how it is in game play are two different topics. Also, how is your reply connected to the fact that she needs her heal removed? She doesn't need nerfs? Either you enjoy playing Senna or disagreeing for the sake of disagreement. I'm pretty sure there are plenty of players who would agree she needs some nerfs.
: You have it backward. She's (support to be) a support. She should be healing, shielding, and protecting/enabling, not dealing damage.
> [{quoted}](name=Darkdemon653,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AQwgxOlZ,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-11-23T21:42:42.313+0000) > > You have it backward. She's (support to be) a support. She should be healing, shielding, and protecting/enabling, not dealing damage. So...what about Zyra, Lux, and Brand? What about Pyke and Blitzcrank? You're also implying there's only one way to play support. By poking a champion down, you can make it easier for your ADC to get kills and you can create pressure in a lane. You don't even know the basics and you're talking about the support role to a support main. I suggest you learn the overall game more.
Comentários de Rioters
Comentários de Rioters
: Uhh...relic grants 11.3 gp10 when used in the most efficient way conceivably possible. 7.85 the least efficient way possible (assuming you're using them at all). Spellthief is 12-17 gp10. Also, a lot of tanks without shields/significant sustain/mana sustain might be starting corrupting pot and grabbing the support item first back. You just give up too much health taking relic procs now, and spend too much mana trying to get it back. Considering the gold efficiency of {{item:2033}} increasing every back, you don't even effectively lose gold doing this either, and it lets you actually compete with the 135% gold efficient Doran's Blade instead of sitting on your 50%- gold efficient support item.
> [{quoted}](name=WoonStruck,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bpzN4M6X,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-11-23T09:27:51.915+0000) > > Uhh...relic grants 11.3 gp10 when used in the most efficient way conceivably possible. 7.85 the least efficient way possible (assuming you're using them at all). > > Spellthief is 12-17 gp10. > > Also, a lot of tanks without shields/significant sustain/mana sustain might be starting corrupting pot and grabbing the support item first back. > > You just give up too much health taking relic procs now, and spend too much mana trying to get it back. > > Considering the gold efficiency of {{item:2033}} increasing every back, you don't even effectively lose gold doing this either, and it lets you actually compete with the 135% gold efficient Doran's Blade instead of sitting on your 50%- gold efficient support item. Also, to add, if you play tank supports, then you should be looking to tank or engage onto the enemy. Sitting back when you're a tank into a squishy not only removes pressure from your lane but puts your ADC at risk for cs loss and heavy poke.
Comentários de Rioters
: What kind of feeding games are you in that the game is decided in 10 minutes??? first blood isn't usually until 5-7 minutes in for me
> [{quoted}](name=Jigglypuff,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=h2AE9uT7,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2019-11-22T23:27:00.987+0000) > > What kind of feeding games are you in that the game is decided in 10 minutes??? first blood isn't usually until 5-7 minutes in for me Lmao. I wish. I've only played one or two games the whole season where no one died more than 2 times in the first ten minutes. It's that bad where I'm at. What I mean is also on lane dominance, cs, and jungle pressure. If I'm behind, I can come back, but my team just gives up when they fall behind making it harder to closer the gap.
: > [{quoted}](name=okamiyasha95,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=h2AE9uT7,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-22T01:50:44.571+0000) > > We do have tanks tho. They're just supports like Leona and Braum lol. The "Demolishers" are Juggernauts. Riot completely ****** the game up when they said, "Let's make a class of champs that can everything and do a steroid amount of damage (Dr. Mundo)." While I absolutely agree the entire concept of "let's make a group of "tanks" that have slightly less tank stats but trade them for bruiser level damage" is absolutely toxic at a fundamental level (it makes both true tanks and bruisers feel like shit in the top lane) I think you're missing the overall point that I was saying: Tanks cannot exist in a meta where there are more ways to make them irrelevant than there are ways for them to have ever been relevant in an average game. And Resolve tree does...very little to actually help with that. And like, I get it: NOBODY wants another tank meta. Me included, those games took longer than a sloth in a footrace. But if you take away every avenue a subtype in your game has by introducing "counterplay" that shits on them "juggernauts" that lose a total of maybe 200 hp and like 20/20 armor/MR to then deal 900%hp damage to them in a fight, and by pretty much passively including Magic Pen in the core items of every single type of mage (burst like void staff, control like Liandris...Assholes like both...and all of these are pretty much *standard buys* for each subtype of mage, respectively) and you end up with a group within the playerbase feeling more useless than Graves was last season.
> [{quoted}](name=ChaosReyn,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=h2AE9uT7,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-22T04:14:19.859+0000) > > While I absolutely agree the entire concept of "let's make a group of "tanks" that have slightly less tank stats but trade them for bruiser level damage" is absolutely toxic at a fundamental level (it makes both true tanks and bruisers feel like shit in the top lane) I think you're missing the overall point that I was saying: Tanks cannot exist in a meta where there are more ways to make them irrelevant than there are ways for them to have ever been relevant in an average game. > > And Resolve tree does...very little to actually help with that. And like, I get it: NOBODY wants another tank meta. Me included, those games took longer than a sloth in a footrace. But if you take away every avenue a subtype in your game has by introducing "counterplay" that shits on them "juggernauts" that lose a total of maybe 200 hp and like 20/20 armor/MR to then deal 900%hp damage to them in a fight, and by pretty much passively including Magic Pen in the core items of every single type of mage (burst like void staff, control like Liandris...Assholes like both...and all of these are pretty much *standard buys* for each subtype of mage, respectively) and you end up with a group within the playerbase feeling more useless than Graves was last season. Oh nah. I got the point. I was just adding in my two cents lol. As someone who loves playing Graves, last season hurt my soul lmao.
: > [{quoted}](name=okamiyasha95,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=h2AE9uT7,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-11-22T01:35:38.327+0000) > > From the Wiki: > "Lethality is a new statistic introduced in Season 2017 to replace flat armor penetration. It grants flat armor penetration using the following formula: Flat Armor Penetration = LETHALITY × (0.6 + 0.4 × level ÷ 18). The target's armor is treated as being reduced by an amount for purposes of damage calculation, but cannot be reduced below 0. Flat armor penetration. > > Example 1: 20 lethality causes a target(level 18) to take damage as if its armor was 20 less, so a target with 30 armor will be treated as though it had 10 for purposes of damage calculation (the target's actual armor value will not change, however)." > > You do realize that building more armor works for armor pen too right? What you said is ignorant. > > Let's look at your average tank top lane build: {{item:3068}}, ({{item:3075}} or {{item:3143}} or {{item:3110}}), ({{item:3025}} or {{item:3001}}) , {{item:3800}}, ({{item:3047}} or {{item:3111}}), {{item:3083}} or {{item:3065}}. > > Now let's build a straight armor build: {{item:3068}}, {{item:3075}}, {{item:3143}}, {{item:3110}}, ({{item:3025}} or{{item:3512}}), and {{item:3047}}. That's a total of 395 or 385 armor depending on if you buy Iceborne or ZZ. > > That is a lot. Let's build against tanks: ({{item:3033}} or {{item:3036}}), {{item:3142}}, ({{item:3814}} or {{item:3147}}), {{item:3071}}, {{item:3153}}, and ({{item:3047}} or {{item:3111}}). That's 39 or 28 lethality with 25 or 35 armor pen and 24 percent armor reduction. > > Congratulations! You have effectively went from 395 armor to 145.96 or 187.17 armor. Think it's Bullshit? I've done the math, looked at the items, and researched how they worked. Black Cleaver stacks onto the armor penetration. Lethality is flat armor. Yes and armor pen is percent of total armor. So adding all the items together you get those numbers. MIND YOU, we still have BOTRK. So, whatever health you have, it's getting melted. > > Also, you have the MR side which is worse. There's less MR items for tanks and mages have better MR penetration than ADCs have Armor penetration. > > Tanks usually build half and half, so they're getting rear-ended by everything with nothing to counter it. Tanks are still squishy. As a result, many players play tanks that can either deal percent health damage or can deal damage with their items. No one, well the majority of players do not play tanks for the sake of soaking damage anymore. > > And to be honest, that number could actually be lower. From what I heard, armor reduction multiplies with armor penetration. Armor pen and armor reduction are different. I just added them instead of multiplying them for simple purposes. You know, I really don't get melted at all when I play Sejuani well. I think right now tanks are in a relatively ok place. To do what they are designed to do really well they need to be ahead in gold. It is more difficult for tanks to get ahead in gold sure, but it can happen, and trust me when i say you are unkillable when you are ahead. I think everyone just looks at the damage things are doing in low elo and complain but they don't understand that they play a braindead monkey style of game where they just feed gold oblivious to the understanding that the more gold you give away, the more damage something does.
> [{quoted}](name=Mordistar,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=h2AE9uT7,comment-id=000200000001,timestamp=2019-11-22T10:07:01.621+0000) > > You know, I really don't get melted at all when I play Sejuani well. I think right now tanks are in a relatively ok place. To do what they are designed to do really well they need to be ahead in gold. It is more difficult for tanks to get ahead in gold sure, but it can happen, and trust me when i say you are unkillable when you are ahead. I think everyone just looks at the damage things are doing in low elo and complain but they don't understand that they play a braindead monkey style of game where they just feed gold oblivious to the understanding that the more gold you give away, the more damage something does. I mean. Yeah. There are games where the tank gets to tank the way the tank is supposed to. Getting ahead is difficult, but there used to be a time when tanks didn't have to be ahead to get tanky. They just needed maybe two items and have decent xp. I'm talking about before the tank meta when Sej was OP as hell. Sej is a super tank for 3 seconds when her passive is up and becomes a regular tank after that.
Gëcko (NA)
: Over how many games?
> [{quoted}](name=Gëcko,realm=NA,application-id=GgNYATV4,discussion-id=7lZL4Ecg,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-11-22T08:51:05.996+0000) > > Over how many games? This season I've played 66 games with Thresh. I stopped playing him as much because more times than not, my ADC was dog shit so I couldn't carry them or give them the lead I know I could give them. I try to play ADC more often until I get to a point I feel is okay to play Support again because my ADCs are usually dog shit. They don't cs well enough, they don't get kills they should, they're not as aggressive or passive as they should be, they don't know how to orb walk, and they always misposition/use their abilities wrong.
: > [{quoted}](name=okamiyasha95,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=h2AE9uT7,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-11-22T01:35:38.327+0000) > > From the Wiki: > "Lethality is a new statistic introduced in Season 2017 to replace flat armor penetration. It grants flat armor penetration using the following formula: Flat Armor Penetration = LETHALITY × (0.6 + 0.4 × level ÷ 18). The target's armor is treated as being reduced by an amount for purposes of damage calculation, but cannot be reduced below 0. Flat armor penetration. > > Example 1: 20 lethality causes a target(level 18) to take damage as if its armor was 20 less, so a target with 30 armor will be treated as though it had 10 for purposes of damage calculation (the target's actual armor value will not change, however)." > > You do realize that building more armor works for armor pen too right? What you said is ignorant. > > Let's look at your average tank top lane build: {{item:3068}}, ({{item:3075}} or {{item:3143}} or {{item:3110}}), ({{item:3025}} or {{item:3001}}) , {{item:3800}}, ({{item:3047}} or {{item:3111}}), {{item:3083}} or {{item:3065}}. > > Now let's build a straight armor build: {{item:3068}}, {{item:3075}}, {{item:3143}}, {{item:3110}}, ({{item:3025}} or{{item:3512}}), and {{item:3047}}. That's a total of 395 or 385 armor depending on if you buy Iceborne or ZZ. > > That is a lot. Let's build against tanks: ({{item:3033}} or {{item:3036}}), {{item:3142}}, ({{item:3814}} or {{item:3147}}), {{item:3071}}, {{item:3153}}, and ({{item:3047}} or {{item:3111}}). That's 39 or 28 lethality with 25 or 35 armor pen and 24 percent armor reduction. > > Congratulations! You have effectively went from 395 armor to 145.96 or 187.17 armor. Think it's Bullshit? I've done the math, looked at the items, and researched how they worked. Black Cleaver stacks onto the armor penetration. Lethality is flat armor. Yes and armor pen is percent of total armor. So adding all the items together you get those numbers. MIND YOU, we still have BOTRK. So, whatever health you have, it's getting melted. > > Also, you have the MR side which is worse. There's less MR items for tanks and mages have better MR penetration than ADCs have Armor penetration. > > Tanks usually build half and half, so they're getting rear-ended by everything with nothing to counter it. Tanks are still squishy. As a result, many players play tanks that can either deal percent health damage or can deal damage with their items. No one, well the majority of players do not play tanks for the sake of soaking damage anymore. > > And to be honest, that number could actually be lower. From what I heard, armor reduction multiplies with armor penetration. Armor pen and armor reduction are different. I just added them instead of multiplying them for simple purposes. JUST GO PLAY TANKS you clearly have no clue wtf they do. Lethality works vs base armor once someone starts build armor it is too much and the stat becomes less effective. For a assassin like zed to kill a tank like idk maokai he has to around 4000 damage when the pen included if they're building 50/50 and if there is a ad assassin it will not be 50/50. This is the best case scenario for a assassin to kill a tank. That is way too much for a burst champion to do. Now a adc like ashe she would take about 2300 damage I think to kill probably less. You see the problem here right? Like do the math please like you haven't done the math at fucking all. "You have effectively went from 395 armor to 145.96 or 187.17 armor." Like IF A ASSASSIN BUILDS TO KILL TANKS GUESS WHAT THEY DO 0 Damage wtf. They also do burst damage meaning black cleaver will not be at 24 stacks for the majority of the damage. Stop with this bs and play tanks they're fine. The only poeple that say tanks are bad is people like you since you don't play them.
> [{quoted}](name=boricCentaur1,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=h2AE9uT7,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2019-11-22T02:10:20.176+0000) > > JUST GO PLAY TANKS you clearly have no clue wtf they do. > > Lethality works vs base armor once someone starts build armor it is too much and the stat becomes less effective. > > For a assassin like zed to kill a tank like idk maokai he has to around 4000 damage when the pen included if they're building 50/50 and if there is a ad assassin it will not be 50/50. This is the best case scenario for a assassin to kill a tank. That is way too much for a burst champion to do. Now a adc like ashe she would take about 2300 damage I think to kill probably less. > > You see the problem here right? Like do the math please like you haven't done the math at fucking all. "You have effectively went from 395 armor to 145.96 or 187.17 armor." Like IF A ASSASSIN BUILDS TO KILL TANKS GUESS WHAT THEY DO 0 Damage wtf. They also do burst damage meaning black cleaver will not be at 24 stacks for the majority of the damage. > > Stop with this bs and play tanks they're fine. The only poeple that say tanks are bad is people like you since you don't play them. I've played tanks. This season. Amumu being one of them. I know it doesn't stack on assassins that do burst damage. I've already told you, I've done the research and the math. Also, Zed was never a good champ against tanks. I primarily focused around ADCs because the last time I checked, I didn't think assassins built BOTRK.
Comentários de Rioters
: > [{quoted}](name=Hsofth,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=h2AE9uT7,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-11-21T20:50:51.001+0000) > > Well real life tanks do demolish buildings and humans alike, but LoL tanks were meant to be like walls. So technically we have tanks. But at the cost of healthy and viable walls. I mean, that's kinda of my point. xD We dont have *tanks*, we have *demolishers* Although all the new changes have helped tanks a lot in actually being tanks again, the OP's point does still stand that the resolve tree is kind of a joke.
> [{quoted}](name=ChaosReyn,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=h2AE9uT7,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2019-11-21T22:43:37.501+0000) > > I mean, that's kinda of my point. xD > We dont have *tanks*, we have *demolishers* > Although all the new changes have helped tanks a lot in actually being tanks again, the OP's point does still stand that the resolve tree is kind of a joke. We do have tanks tho. They're just supports like Leona and Braum lol. The "Demolishers" are Juggernauts. Riot completely ****** the game up when they said, "Let's make a class of champs that can everything and do a steroid amount of damage (Dr. Mundo)."
: tbf, marksmen take Magical Footwear all the time and Conditioning is potentially worth twice as much. The rune doesn't function top or bot lane where laning phase is everything, but now that tanky junglers don't have to gank constantly it might be - VERY - worth using on them. Also worth noting is that beefy mids like {{champion:58}} or {{champion:86}} can sacrifice a bit of their early game by taking the rune alongside Waterwalking, and then suddenly they have 1.5k gold worth of raw stats for free during every dragon, baron and teamfight in the river.
> [{quoted}](name=FCJAAAAGOOOO,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=h2AE9uT7,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-11-21T18:48:32.855+0000) > > tbf, marksmen take Magical Footwear all the time and Conditioning is potentially worth twice as much. The rune doesn't function top or bot lane where laning phase is everything, but now that tanky junglers don't have to gank constantly it might be - VERY - worth using on them. > > Also worth noting is that beefy mids like {{champion:58}} or {{champion:86}} can sacrifice a bit of their early game by taking the rune alongside Waterwalking, and then suddenly they have 1.5k gold worth of raw stats for free during every dragon, baron and teamfight in the river. I understand how useful it is on ADCs but why the precision tree and not, I don't know, the actual resolve tree, made for tanks? Nunu is the best example of how tenacity is supposed to work with tanks. I've played a game where every stun, root, or silence lasted no longer a second no matter what you threw at him and chain cc lasted maybe no more than 3 seconds. If you're going tank, theoretically, it shouldn't be a problem since you do no damage and can use the tenacity to help participate with your team more. But when you give it to the most powerful tree imo, you give other over-tuned and busted champs that actually synergize well with that tree an advantage they should not have. Take Yi for example: (Tenacity stacks on large monsters well) He's a champion that relies on CC to counter him. With tenacity in the resolve tree, he effectively reduces this issue. Tanks have to build Precision even though it really doesn't help them if they want the tenacity sacrificing the sustainability they would get from inspiration whereas every other champions can have perks of a tank without sacrificing any of their damage. As far as renekton and garen go, they're lane bullies. Garen is just still busted. They not only gave him more damage but also gave him more sustain as well. I get you though. It could be more attributed to their kit and build synergy rather than their runes that give them an advantage.
: And you saying lethality is a way to deal with tanks shows your post has nothing right in it. Since you clearly don't play and understand tanks and items. Armor counters lethality. Like 90% of what you said came be solved by saying go play tanks.
> [{quoted}](name=boricCentaur1,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=h2AE9uT7,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-11-21T21:12:26.012+0000) > > And you saying lethality is a way to deal with tanks shows your post has nothing right in it. Since you clearly don't play and understand tanks and items. > > Armor counters lethality. > > Like 90% of what you said came be solved by saying go play tanks. From the Wiki: "Lethality is a new statistic introduced in Season 2017 to replace flat armor penetration. It grants flat armor penetration using the following formula: Flat Armor Penetration = LETHALITY × (0.6 + 0.4 × level ÷ 18). The target's armor is treated as being reduced by an amount for purposes of damage calculation, but cannot be reduced below 0. Flat armor penetration. Example 1: 20 lethality causes a target(level 18) to take damage as if its armor was 20 less, so a target with 30 armor will be treated as though it had 10 for purposes of damage calculation (the target's actual armor value will not change, however)." You do realize that building more armor works for armor pen too right? What you said is ignorant. Let's look at your average tank top lane build: {{item:3068}}, ({{item:3075}} or {{item:3143}} or {{item:3110}}), ({{item:3025}} or {{item:3001}}) , {{item:3800}}, ({{item:3047}} or {{item:3111}}), {{item:3083}} or {{item:3065}}. Now let's build a straight armor build: {{item:3068}}, {{item:3075}}, {{item:3143}}, {{item:3110}}, ({{item:3025}} or{{item:3512}}), and {{item:3047}}. That's a total of 395 or 385 armor depending on if you buy Iceborne or ZZ. That is a lot. Let's build against tanks: ({{item:3033}} or {{item:3036}}), {{item:3142}}, ({{item:3814}} or {{item:3147}}), {{item:3071}}, {{item:3153}}, and ({{item:3047}} or {{item:3111}}). That's 39 or 28 lethality with 25 or 35 armor pen and 24 percent armor reduction. Congratulations! You have effectively went from 395 armor to 145.96 or 187.17 armor. Think it's Bullshit? I've done the math, looked at the items, and researched how they worked. Black Cleaver stacks onto the armor penetration. Lethality is flat armor. Yes and armor pen is percent of total armor. So adding all the items together you get those numbers. MIND YOU, we still have BOTRK. So, whatever health you have, it's getting melted. Also, you have the MR side which is worse. There's less MR items for tanks and mages have better MR penetration than ADCs have Armor penetration. Tanks usually build half and half, so they're getting rear-ended by everything with nothing to counter it. Tanks are still squishy. As a result, many players play tanks that can either deal percent health damage or can deal damage with their items. No one, well the majority of players do not play tanks for the sake of soaking damage anymore. And to be honest, that number could actually be lower. From what I heard, armor reduction multiplies with armor penetration. Armor pen and armor reduction are different. I just added them instead of multiplying them for simple purposes.
: it's not tho.. You're acting like his passive is this crazy thing that does a bajillion dmg if it lasted only a few seconds there would be no point to it. I just feel like you're overestimating his passive. It's not that good the only reason it might be strong is when you build rylai's, so don't call for a change to morde's kit, instead complain about ryalais, because that's the only reason it's even relevant. and liandry's too
> [{quoted}](name=xNarcissism,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Wd0INt4n,comment-id=00010000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-21T16:59:12.027+0000) > > it's not tho.. > You're acting like his passive is this crazy thing that does a bajillion dmg > if it lasted only a few seconds there would be no point to it. > I just feel like you're overestimating his passive. It's not that good > the only reason it might be strong is when you build rylai's, so don't call for a change to morde's kit, instead complain about ryalais, because that's the only reason it's even relevant. and liandry's too I just got finished playing against Morde as Trynd. Every single fight was close even though I won the majority of the fights. The jungler ganked once or twice and helped him get a kill. Every other time, I was cutting it close. I made some mistakes here and there during the skirmishes causing me to either lose the kill or in one case, get killed. There's no reason why Morde should've been able to go toe to toe with me. We're talking about a {{item:3046}} Trynd into a {{item:3047}} Morde and I was still close to losing the fight. Tryndamere is THE close range champion. Later in the game, We go even in cs. I'm 3/2 he's 1/3. I've got {{item:3006}} and {{item:3046}} and he's got {{item:3047}} and {{item:3136}} and he's still able to kill me. No matter what stats he steals, he still doesn't attack enough to really out dps me and if he steals 10 percent AS from me I'm still fast enough to out dps him. His only armor item is Tabis which only blocks a percent of my auto dmg. I land a lot of crits on him. He doesn't have any other armor item at the moment or any complete item. I've got Phantom Dancer which gives me a shield when I reach below a certain health percentage (which is a full item) and AS boots to make up for the Tabi's passive. If you want to compare kit to kit, Tryndamere should stomp on Morde. He should never be getting close to winning at all against Trynd. With my Q, the lower on health I get, the more damage I deal and the more Fury I have, the more damage I deal AND I have the last stand rune which allows me to deal more damage the lower on health I get. Also, the more fury I have, the more likely my crit chance lands. We're the same level with the same cs. I shouldn't have to pop my ult against a Morde who is not only an item behind but 2 or 3 kills behind me. He shouldn't even be remotely close to winning a head on fight against me. Yet, he ended up dealing the same amount of damage to me, if not more, than I did to him. How can you tell me he's not over-tuned or he's fine? I say his passive gives him an advantage where it shouldn't exist due to how long it lasts. If you think his passive isn't a problem, then what do you think is? But I'm telling you, there is a problem with Morde when it comes to him vs cretain melee matchups where he should lose.
Comentários de Rioters
: > [{quoted}](name=okamiyasha95,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Wd0INt4n,comment-id=00010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-21T04:07:23.987+0000) > > How is it ignorant? I explained why ranged champs will always counter champions who need to be on top of you. The main thing is, they have to be on top of you. It is very difficult for a player to play a melee champ into a ranged champ and get in close enough to attack unless the ranged champ sucks at positioning. Just because melee champs do more damage in a shorter time span than ranged champions doesn't mean they counter ranged champs. You're referring more to team composition. In teams, players help other players get their champs into range. CC is a great tool for this allowing your teammate enough time to get in range of melee. Also, mispositioning as stated above is another way melee champs get into range. Getting caught because you wanted to dilly dally in the jungle with no vision. I guarantee you, if you play a ranged champ into a melee champ in a 1 v 1, you will get counter hard no matter what melee champ you play, the ranged champ will win in a 1 v 1 which is also why most players choose to play ranged champs in the mid lane or in a 1 v 1 battle. It's just the nature of the designs. > > I have to bring up other champs, because you brought up other champs. "Ranged champs" is talking about other champs. All ranged champs to be specific. I also use those champs as a support for why I make my statements in trying to justify why it is I say what I say about them. If you don't get it ask. Otherwise, continue to break them down the way you did in the beginning. > > With that being said, Nasus is a late game monster but he doesn't get countered by everything early. His playstyle is just like Gangplank's. they both sit under turret and farm the entire game until they get fed off cs. Everything in Nasus' kit allows him to farm under turret safely with little to no worries. His only problem is that he relies on himself way too much and not his team and by the time he groups, the game is pretty much decided. > > You also failed to understand my point. I rebuttled your statement about Morde getting countered hard by ranged champs so it would make sense he's good against melee champs. You didn't contradict yourself which is good, but you failed to understand why I said what I said. Whether or not he's good early or late doesn't change anything. > > You sir/ma'am/whatever you identify as, obviously don't know what orb walking is. It's a technique that ADCs use where they attack, walk either towards or away from a target just before their auto animation finishes (called an auto-cancelling which allows you extra frames of attacks so you can attack "faster."), and then attack again. In other words, you're moving while you're attacking. All proessional, saavy, and good players know this technique and use it. Morde can walk his opponent like a dog. So, attacking while standing is somewhat true but not quite in the way you're using it. > > Now you sound stupid. You didn't say ALL, but you never said some. Here are YOUR replies: > > "wait, so where is this "melees are supposed to counter morde" thing coming from? I'm pretty sure the whole point of the champ is to counter melees, and then get fucked over by ranged" > "If you look at his kit, you can see that his abilities are meant for melees...like i said before, he gets cucked by ranged in exchange for being strong against melees." > "And I think that you're failing to see that ranged fucks him over so hard that i'd say it's worth it that he's strong against melees. I don't think he's overtuned at all. He's really simple, actually." > > In all of these, you never said some. These are from everything up until your recent reply. You have to specify whether or not it's some otherwise the words will be generalized. If you're just now saying some, then you agree with my statement. I don't see how or why you disagree. I said that in my previous posts. That's not my problem. My issue is who he counters and who he's supposed to counter just happen to be different. He's countering and do well against champs that he has no business doing well against. > > I don't get a lot of his kit? You just got finished talking about reply history. I know what his kit's made of. I've played Morde before the old and the new one. I know his new model is different than his old model. The new model is made to be more independent in his own lane than the old one. He's an AP juggernaut (Check his Wiki.). I'm only targetting one specific aspect of his kit that I feel is overtuned. There's a difference between overtuned and broken. Overtuned just means a part of his kit has too much. Broken means the whole champ is too much. I still don't understand what you mean by overtuned.. all it is is a little dmg in an aoe so that he has consistent dmg.. how is that overtuned? It would be overtuned if say it reduces magic resist or something, but it doesn't. Morde would be complete trash without his passive, 'cause all he could do in terms of damage is auto and q.
> [{quoted}](name=xNarcissism,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Wd0INt4n,comment-id=000100000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-21T13:49:28.033+0000) > > I still don't understand what you mean by overtuned.. > all it is is a little dmg in an aoe so that he has consistent dmg.. how is that overtuned? It would be overtuned if say it reduces magic resist or something, but it doesn't. Morde would be complete trash without his passive, 'cause all he could do in terms of damage is auto and q. His passive is over-tuned to be specific. I understand how his passive works and I've experienced it first hand. It lasts too long is what really bothers me and what I find over-tuned about his kit . The reason I mention his MS is because that is a mechanic of his passive that allows him to continue his passive refresher easier against champions who should have a chance at him. His passive should not refresh. If you want to give him MS to keep up with champions, then either give his Q a slow or give him MS when he successfully lands his Q on a champ, but to allow his passive to be able to last longer than an entire skirmish is excessive.
Kovorix (EUW)
: I can't wait for your detialed reasoning.
: i think some of it I do actually agree with even though it would be an apparent counterargument. The problem isn't with the assassins themselves shaping up to a gank heavy meta. It's rather that the gold-heavy spots are favored toward AD champs (hence taking the red buff) vs mana-heavy or AP champs (who prefer Blue buff) and so itemization can actually become easier towards those junglers and are rewarded more for building straight AD and lethality and less rewarding when you play a champion that can jungle but do bad because of the itemization for that kind of playstyle. {{champion:131}} technically is an example of an assassin that actually could jungle and has AP scaling and prefers blue buff over red buff. So it's not about the assassin but what it basically rewards in the jungle in general. I did talk about switching the raptors and wolves so that the gold efficiency can be conquered on either side without the use of vertical jungling. Also I do like the sound of giving conditional buffs from season 5-6 as it pertains to unique gameplay in order to increase diversity as well. But yea, jungle is kinda really not my thing but I can give it a try. {{champion:163}}
Nah the number one problem with assassins is they have too much damage. At all stages of the game. It's already easy to snowball with them. Look at Talon. As soon as he hits level 2, he can all in you and kill you. An assassin can go 0/5, barely have an item finished, and still all in you. They can have no kills a decent amount of cs and still all in your fed mid laner or ADC. The second problem is how much free reign they have over the map and in their kit. Everything in their kit allows them to get in and get out with little to no worry. They all have refreshes on some ability which allows them to spam attacks/escapes making them all the more difficult to manage. How can you beat champs that can get over walls in the blink of an eye and you can't? You can't counter something you can't target or see and their abilities allow them to not be targetted or seen. Some assassins have a built in {{item:3814}} and then they can just build it making it impossible to stop them from killing you. Then they have abilities that either make them faster or slow you. Jungle makes it worse by far since Jungle has THE most free reign over the map. You could build Zhonya's to counter their ult, but as an ADC, that's not that good of a buy. Lastly, assassins rely too much on early game and early leads. The reason you won't see them in pro play is because those players know not to overextend in lane. Also, great junglers can counter jungle assassins well. Assassins are really squishy early so invading their jungle is a great way to stop them. An assassin can't really do anything when the whole enemy team is warded out and playing it safe. It's harder to have successful ganks. In solo Q, no one is communicating, players play recklessly, they don't ward, and they overextend. It makes it easier for assassins to dive or gank. Also, the solo Q junglers don't really jungle against assassins correctly. Not taking away from the fact that jungle rewards still help, but I can spend a majority of the game ganking a lane getting kills off players and taxing lanes. The smite items and the extra XP it gives is more of an issue. It doesn't matter what buff you start. If you take it, you're level 2 and you can cheese the hell out of any lane.
: > [{quoted}](name=okamiyasha95,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Wd0INt4n,comment-id=000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-19T21:55:29.658+0000) > > Not failing the point. Ranged champions counter everyone. Those who can attack you from a further distance will always counter those who have to be close. I'm going to say you're saying he should be strong against melee champs, as a whole. This statement is flawed. In saying that, you also say he should counter melee champs. Ranged champions counter Nasus. Does that mean Nasus should do well against melee champs too? If so, then Nasus should do well against Morde and Garen since they're melee champs right? He doesn't. He's weak against certain melee champs. Ranged champions counter Tryndamere. He should be strong against Darius and Shen since they're melee champs right? Wrong. Shen and Darius counter Tryndamere. > > Just because ranged champs do well against melee champs doesn't mean melee champs do poorly against ALL ranged champs which also means that because melee champs do poorly against ranged champs doesn't mean that melee champs should only be great against melee champs since some melee champs counter ranged champs. For example: Fiora is a melee champion who is designed to counter every melee champion. Just because she counters every melee champion doesn't mean she does well or wins against every melee champion. Just because ranged champs counter melee champs doesn't necessarily mean melee champs can't counter ranged champs. To say what you said about him is to imply that ALL ranged champions counter Morde. Guess what? Morde actually dunks on some ranged champs. > > To make the statement that he should be strong against melees is disregarding everything I said up to this point. I've already explained that he does well against certain melee champs. I've also said he's doing well against certain champs he shouldn't be doing well against. He is overtuned. I've already explained how he's overtuned and you have yet to prove why you feel he isn't overtuned. All you've said was he sucks against ranged champs so he should be strong against melee champs and he isn't overtuned. Unless you can explain to me from your perspective why he isn't overtuned, you're not helping anyone. All you're doing is throwing the conversation into a loop that never ends since you really don't have anything to bring to this table other than the fact that you're here. Maybe I'm disregarding what you're saying, but you're defininitely misunderstanding me. FIrst of all Nasus is supposed to be a late game monster, so that's why he gets countered by everything early so using him to try and further your point actually hurts you. Second, stating that ranged counters everything is ignorant as fuck. For most ranged champs all you have to do is get on top of them. The reason morde sucks against them is because he has no mobility to get on top of them in the first place. also, not sure how auto attacking and q'ing while standing in passive is called "overtuned" if anything, it's just simple ass gameplay. and the only time a ranged should get dunked by morde is if they get hit by an e. Otherwise, yea, he gets countered by ranged. and why are you bringing up all these other champs? we're talking about morde here. referencing your comment about me saying that morde counters all melees, reread. I said that he counters MOST and goes even with the rest. Don't put words in my mouth. And the reason why? That passive you're so salty about. How can you lose to another melee if you have an aoe dps white you're auto attacking and q'ing? I just feel like you don't get a lot of morde's kit is for fighting melees, so don't be surprised if he doesn't lose to most of them
> [{quoted}](name=xNarcissism,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Wd0INt4n,comment-id=0001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-21T03:01:00.827+0000) > > Maybe I'm disregarding what you're saying, but you're defininitely misunderstanding me. > FIrst of all Nasus is supposed to be a late game monster, so that's why he gets countered by everything early so using him to try and further your point actually hurts you. > Second, stating that ranged counters everything is ignorant as fuck. For most ranged champs all you have to do is get on top of them. The reason morde sucks against them is because he has no mobility to get on top of them in the first place. > > also, not sure how auto attacking and q'ing while standing in passive is called "overtuned" > if anything, it's just simple ass gameplay. > > and the only time a ranged should get dunked by morde is if they get hit by an e. Otherwise, yea, he gets countered by ranged. > > and why are you bringing up all these other champs? we're talking about morde here. > > referencing your comment about me saying that morde counters all melees, reread. I said that he counters MOST and goes even with the rest. Don't put words in my mouth. > > And the reason why? That passive you're so salty about. How can you lose to another melee if you have an aoe dps white you're auto attacking and q'ing? > > I just feel like you don't get a lot of morde's kit is for fighting melees, so don't be surprised if he doesn't lose to most of them How is it ignorant? I explained why ranged champs will always counter champions who need to be on top of you. The main thing is, they have to be on top of you. It is very difficult for a player to play a melee champ into a ranged champ and get in close enough to attack unless the ranged champ sucks at positioning. Just because melee champs do more damage in a shorter time span than ranged champions doesn't mean they counter ranged champs. You're referring more to team composition. In teams, players help other players get their champs into range. CC is a great tool for this allowing your teammate enough time to get in range of melee. Also, mispositioning as stated above is another way melee champs get into range. Getting caught because you wanted to dilly dally in the jungle with no vision. I guarantee you, if you play a ranged champ into a melee champ in a 1 v 1, you will get counter hard no matter what melee champ you play, the ranged champ will win in a 1 v 1 which is also why most players choose to play ranged champs in the mid lane or in a 1 v 1 battle. It's just the nature of the designs. I have to bring up other champs, because you brought up other champs. "Ranged champs" is talking about other champs. All ranged champs to be specific. I also use those champs as a support for why I make my statements in trying to justify why it is I say what I say about them. If you don't get it ask. Otherwise, continue to break them down the way you did in the beginning. With that being said, Nasus is a late game monster but he doesn't get countered by everything early. His playstyle is just like Gangplank's. they both sit under turret and farm the entire game until they get fed off cs. Everything in Nasus' kit allows him to farm under turret safely with little to no worries. His only problem is that he relies on himself way too much and not his team and by the time he groups, the game is pretty much decided. You also failed to understand my point. I rebuttled your statement about Morde getting countered hard by ranged champs so it would make sense he's good against melee champs. You didn't contradict yourself which is good, but you failed to understand why I said what I said. Whether or not he's good early or late doesn't change anything. You sir/ma'am/whatever you identify as, obviously don't know what orb walking is. It's a technique that ADCs use where they attack, walk either towards or away from a target just before their auto animation finishes (called an auto-cancelling which allows you extra frames of attacks so you can attack "faster."), and then attack again. In other words, you're moving while you're attacking. All proessional, saavy, and good players know this technique and use it. Morde can walk his opponent like a dog. So, attacking while standing is somewhat true but not quite in the way you're using it. Now you sound stupid. You didn't say ALL, but you never said some. Here are YOUR replies: "wait, so where is this "melees are supposed to counter morde" thing coming from? I'm pretty sure the whole point of the champ is to counter melees, and then get fucked over by ranged" "If you look at his kit, you can see that his abilities are meant for melees...like i said before, he gets cucked by ranged in exchange for being strong against melees." "And I think that you're failing to see that ranged fucks him over so hard that i'd say it's worth it that he's strong against melees. I don't think he's overtuned at all. He's really simple, actually." In all of these, you never said some. These are from everything up until your recent reply. You have to specify whether or not it's some otherwise the words will be generalized. If you're just now saying some, then you agree with my statement. I don't see how or why you disagree. I said that in my previous posts. That's not my problem. My issue is who he counters and who he's supposed to counter just happen to be different. He's countering and do well against champs that he has no business doing well against. I don't get a lot of his kit? You just got finished talking about reply history. I know what his kit's made of. I've played Morde before the old and the new one. I know his new model is different than his old model. The new model is made to be more independent in his own lane than the old one. He's an AP juggernaut (Check his Wiki.). I'm only targetting one specific aspect of his kit that I feel is overtuned. There's a difference between overtuned and broken. Overtuned just means a part of his kit has too much. Broken means the whole champ is too much.
: > [{quoted}](name=okamiyasha95,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Wd0INt4n,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-18T20:03:03.137+0000) > > Some melees should counter him the same way he counters certain melee champs. The reason he goes well or even but never bad against melee champs is because he's overtuned. The only champions who should flat out counter melee champs are ranged champs as long as they stay out of melee range. Morde is a melee champ. Certain melee champs are design to be dominant in close ranged battles. If you don't what my point is then A: you're purposely ignoring the point or B: You're so biased towards Morde that you can't see unhealthy he is atm. And I think that you're failing to see that ranged fucks him over so hard that i'd say it's worth it that he's strong against melees. I don't think he's overtuned at all. He's really simple, actually.
Not failing the point. Ranged champions counter everyone. Those who can attack you from a further distance will always counter those who have to be close. I'm going to say you're saying he should be strong against melee champs, as a whole. This statement is flawed. In saying that, you also say he should counter melee champs. Ranged champions counter Nasus. Does that mean Nasus should do well against melee champs too? If so, then Nasus should do well against Morde and Garen since they're melee champs right? He doesn't. He's weak against certain melee champs. Ranged champions counter Tryndamere. He should be strong against Darius and Shen since they're melee champs right? Wrong. Shen and Darius counter Tryndamere. Just because ranged champs do well against melee champs doesn't mean melee champs do poorly against ALL ranged champs which also means that because melee champs do poorly against ranged champs doesn't mean that melee champs should only be great against melee champs since some melee champs counter ranged champs. For example: Fiora is a melee champion who is designed to counter every melee champion. Just because she counters every melee champion doesn't mean she does well or wins against every melee champion. Just because ranged champs counter melee champs doesn't necessarily mean melee champs can't counter ranged champs. To say what you said about him is to imply that ALL ranged champions counter Morde. Guess what? Morde actually dunks on some ranged champs. To make the statement that he should be strong against melees is disregarding everything I said up to this point. I've already explained that he does well against certain melee champs. I've also said he's doing well against certain champs he shouldn't be doing well against. He is overtuned. I've already explained how he's overtuned and you have yet to prove why you feel he isn't overtuned. All you've said was he sucks against ranged champs so he should be strong against melee champs and he isn't overtuned. Unless you can explain to me from your perspective why he isn't overtuned, you're not helping anyone. All you're doing is throwing the conversation into a loop that never ends since you really don't have anything to bring to this table other than the fact that you're here.
: i think there should be a system so that it will diminish CC from other users CC rather than CC from the initial caster. So example. If Leona Roots a user, Then Stuns them with her Q, then presses R To stun, All of that should not be affected by 'the system'. Now, IF you have Morgana, Land a Bind, and jhin would to snare the target again. (That should punish jhin with a diminished snared), Then IF morgana were to Press Her R. She is the priority. And she'll stun for the full duration if she were to land it. This way for some champions like Leona, and amumu, wouldn't be really affected as they're expected to initiate. But things like Ekko or caitlyn might see the effects.
This isn't a bad idea. I approve this message.
: ehhhhh, just ban it if you don't like it, I mostly find cait's pretty easy to deal with, the traps are easy to not step on unless ur rooted and one is under you, but other then that most cait's are idiots the rare chance you get a good one against you but if you do it is rough, but i dont think cait is that OP or anything
Well it's easy to avoid any trap if you can see it. The problem isn't avoiding it because most Caits use it to either zone you or set up for extra damage in teamfights using it only when their support engages. The problem is they give her a free headshot, so if she times it right she could get two to three headshots off you in a teamfight for free. I used to permban her til I didn't permaban Yas and with Senna out, I'd rather ban her. Nah. She's not OP, just super annoying to deal with especially with another poke support. The headshot she gets from her traps is excessive in her kit. She gets a free Jhin fourth shot every six attacks but she can actually scale with AS so she can hit it a lot more often. She literally has a safety net (lol) that also gives her a free headshot when she lands it. There's too many headshots in her kit.
Comentários de Rioters
: Nah. Nerf burst damage.
That is actually a great alternative. I wouldn't be worried about chain CC so much if I didn't get blown up while be stun locked.
: > [{quoted}](name=okamiyasha95,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Wd0INt4n,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-11-17T12:36:39.800+0000) > > Morde doesn't counter all melee champs. You're confused on melee champs. There are different types of melees. You have burst melees like Renekton and Riven who rely on quick combos to kill their enemies, assassins like Yi and Talon who do heavily rely on auto attacking to get their max damage off, sustain damage melees like Morde and Nasus who thrive in prolonged fights, Juggernauts like Garen and Mundo who crush the frontline getting to the backline dealing as much as they take, Tank melees like Poppy and Maokai who's attacks are mostly based around autos. A melee champ is just a champ who relies on close ranged attacks with their bare hands or objects in their hand. To use the literal term "All melee champions begin with basic attack range that can vary from 125 to 200." > > Morde is an AP Juggernaut, but he does not counter melee champs. He does well against melee champs, but he doesn't build armor and he stacks a lot of health. It is only natural melee champions who synergize well with {{item:3149}} and or have a lot of healing properties do well against him. Ok.. even if that was true it doesn't mean that some melees should counter him. He either beats or goes even with pretty much every melee, so idk what your point is.
> [{quoted}](name=xNarcissism,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Wd0INt4n,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2019-11-18T18:46:27.997+0000) > > Ok.. even if that was true it doesn't mean that some melees should counter him. He either beats or goes even with pretty much every melee, so idk what your point is. Some melees should counter him the same way he counters certain melee champs. The reason he goes well or even but never bad against melee champs is because he's overtuned. The only champions who should flat out counter melee champs are ranged champs as long as they stay out of melee range. Morde is a melee champ. Certain melee champs are design to be dominant in close ranged battles. If you don't what my point is then A: you're purposely ignoring the point or B: You're so biased towards Morde that you can't see unhealthy he is atm.
: chain cc was added back into the game a couple of seasons ago, because it was far to easy to escape from a team fight if you had any form of mobility buffered, it would auto activate your escape after the longest cc duration was applied. You could flash out of nearly anything, even though you were getting piled with hard cc.
> [{quoted}](name=Call Me Nana,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3vxpIlKe,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-11-18T16:48:48.896+0000) > > chain cc was added back into the game a couple of seasons ago, because it was far to easy to escape from a team fight if you had any form of mobility buffered, it would auto activate your escape after the longest cc duration was applied. You could flash out of nearly anything, even though you were getting piled with hard cc. Then fix the flash mechanic. Don't make it harder for everybody because of one little mechanic. Same thing with Ezreal and Tristana and Kass. Why are they allowed to still finish their ability when they get CC'd? I'd say Chain CC was a thing as soon as Leona was created. Her whole kit is designed around stun locking an opponent lol.
: Just build a Quicksilver Sash, Mikael's Crucible, and use the Cleanse Summoner Spell. That's what they are for.
> [{quoted}](name=Everyday Legends,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3vxpIlKe,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-11-18T17:03:54.168+0000) > > Just build a Quicksilver Sash, Mikael's Crucible, and use the Cleanse Summoner Spell. That's what they are for. Quicksilver Sash only works once so it's useless against a team that has multiple CC outlets and pretty much only ADCs buy it. If they buff it to where Mercurial Scimitar either A: Removes CC on active and gives you a window where you're invulnerable to CC if you activated it while CC'd or B: Removes CC on active and has a passive that reduces CC 20-30 percent or C: Removed CC, had shorter CD, and reduced CC by 20 percent, then the item would be useful, but as it is now, it's not worth the buy against a team with multiple CC options or just in general. It costs too much gold and isn't as effective in practice as it is on paper. Mikael's Crucible can't be used on yourself, which is stupid. I remember playing support and being able to use it on myself, but you can't do that anymore, so that item is useless outside of support. It also only activates and removes CC once. Like QSS, it's useless against a team with multiple CC options. I'd rather buy Locket or Redemption and build more tanky/damage as a support so I don't get blown up myself. Cleanse? Lol. Maybe for an ADC or tank since they're "immobile." But the item works like QSS and MC; can only remove CC once, but unlike QSS, it has a longer CD. I'd rather take Barrier or exhaust since those items are more useful in more situations than Cleanse.
: Stacking crowd control is the only way to deal with a lot of the champions that exist currently in League. The counter to a champion like an Akali, or an Irelia, or an Ekko, the list goes on, is to literally stop them from playing the game until they are dead, because if you don't or cannot, they're likely walking all over you, or taking no losses from a fight they can simply "outplay you" by choosing to leave. Melting as a tank/juggernaut with aftershock and tenacity is frustrating, and I think a lot of people can empathize with how useless it feels to actually try to tank damage in the current meta. However, you can take solace in the fact that getting all of the enemy CC dumped onto you means they haven't used it on your teammates, which likely are champions I mentioned, and they can retaliate for you.
> [{quoted}](name=AvisPraeda,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3vxpIlKe,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-11-18T08:21:17.007+0000) > > Stacking crowd control is the only way to deal with a lot of the champions that exist currently in League. The counter to a champion like an Akali, or an Irelia, or an Ekko, the list goes on, is to literally stop them from playing the game until they are dead, because if you don't or cannot, they're likely walking all over you, or taking no losses from a fight they can simply "outplay you" by choosing to leave. > > Melting as a tank/juggernaut with aftershock and tenacity is frustrating, and I think a lot of people can empathize with how useless it feels to actually try to tank damage in the current meta. However, you can take solace in the fact that getting all of the enemy CC dumped onto you means they haven't used it on your teammates, which likely are champions I mentioned, and they can retaliate for you. Lmao. I would rather Riot just nerf said abilities or mechanics that allow them to be so painstakingly tedious to deal with. It's a toxic environment to buff everything and or add items to the game to deal with outliers or a specific champion because everyone else who isn't as strong as that will either be overpowered or underpowered to other champions. It is useless trying to tank. The whole time I'm perma cc'd, they melt me killing me all in the 5-10 seconds.
Comentários de Rioters
Comentários de Rioters
Antenora (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=okamiyasha95,realm=NA,application-id=GgNYATV4,discussion-id=n9K1zldZ,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-11-17T10:38:09.030+0000) > > They do need nerfs. They don't. Learn how to play against them.
> [{quoted}](name=Antenora,realm=EUW,application-id=GgNYATV4,discussion-id=n9K1zldZ,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-17T13:07:32.837+0000) > > They don't. > > Learn how to play against them. They do. If "learning how to play against them" was so effective, then no champion would ever need nerfs.
: You're acting like morde is a ranged champ.. all of his abilities are melee, so why are other melees are supposed to counter him? I don't know where you got this weird "some melees are supposed to counter him" but it's inaccurate. If you look at his kit, you can see that his abilities are meant for melees...like i said before, he gets cucked by ranged in exchange for being strong against melees. The champs you listed that are "supposed to" counter him really aren't... think about it, the passive you're so against isn't gonna affect ranged as much; that's for a reason. the zone is in melee range, which doesn't rlly apply to ranged champs i'd understand if he's ranged, but he's not. he's a melee, so it'd be kinda fucked if other melees beat him.
> [{quoted}](name=xNarcissism,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Wd0INt4n,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-11-13T22:06:51.367+0000) > > You're acting like morde is a ranged champ.. all of his abilities are melee, so why are other melees are supposed to counter him? I don't know where you got this weird "some melees are supposed to counter him" but it's inaccurate. If you look at his kit, you can see that his abilities are meant for melees...like i said before, he gets cucked by ranged in exchange for being strong against melees. The champs you listed that are "supposed to" counter him really aren't... think about it, the passive you're so against isn't gonna affect ranged as much; that's for a reason. the zone is in melee range, which doesn't rlly apply to ranged champs > > i'd understand if he's ranged, but he's not. he's a melee, so it'd be kinda fucked if other melees beat him. Morde doesn't counter all melee champs. You're confused on melee champs. There are different types of melees. You have burst melees like Renekton and Riven who rely on quick combos to kill their enemies, assassins like Yi and Talon who do heavily rely on auto attacking to get their max damage off, sustain damage melees like Morde and Nasus who thrive in prolonged fights, Juggernauts like Garen and Mundo who crush the frontline getting to the backline dealing as much as they take, Tank melees like Poppy and Maokai who's attacks are mostly based around autos. A melee champ is just a champ who relies on close ranged attacks with their bare hands or objects in their hand. To use the literal term "All melee champions begin with basic attack range that can vary from 125 to 200." Morde is an AP Juggernaut, but he does not counter melee champs. He does well against melee champs, but he doesn't build armor and he stacks a lot of health. It is only natural melee champions who synergize well with {{item:3149}} and or have a lot of healing properties do well against him.
: You can say that any champion is good at there job. When playing Yuumi you have three options; level her Q first, level her E first, or level them both equally. If you level her Q first she does more damage early but she heals nothing. If you level her E first you heal very well early but you do no damage. If you level them both equally then you won't do anything till late game. For any Yuumi player late game she can't do anything because everyone counters her with magic resistance, life steal and overall tankyness. Yuumi also isn't the only champ that can become untargettable. There is Vladimir, Kayle, and Kindred. Now unlike Yuumi they can't do it forever but they do more damage and can take more damage unlike Yuumi. Do you not get the point that Yuumi is a one shot dead champion?
> [{quoted}](name=WanneLogan,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JAVZmoqL,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-14T00:11:49.374+0000) > > You can say that any champion is good at there job. When playing Yuumi you have three options; level her Q first, level her E first, or level them both equally. If you level her Q first she does more damage early but she heals nothing. If you level her E first you heal very well early but you do no damage. If you level them both equally then you won't do anything till late game. For any Yuumi player late game she can't do anything because everyone counters her with magic resistance, life steal and overall tankyness. Yuumi also isn't the only champ that can become untargettable. There is Vladimir, Kayle, and Kindred. Now unlike Yuumi they can't do it forever but they do more damage and can take more damage unlike Yuumi. Do you not get the point that Yuumi is a one shot dead champion? Counters her with magic resist? Yuumi gives her anchor (usually her ADC) adaptive force with is more AD. Yuumi also gives her anchor heals, an MS boost, and CC on her ult. Not sure how MR would effect any of those abilities. I give you the overall tankiness part but I don't see where lifesteal counters extra damage along with the AS boost you give with Ardent Censer especially when lifesteal has been drastically nerfed to attacks on other champs. You're pointing fingers at champs that are completely different in design and execution. You just said their abilities don't last long. It would be stupid if Yuumi wasn't a one shot dead champ. She's basically untargettable the entire game. The only time you can target her is if her anchor dies or if she leaves her anchor of her own free will which is stupid since their really is no point in leaving your anchor. Quite honestly, her being a one shot dead champ doesn't make her worse than other champs.
Antenora (EUW)
: Imagine thinking Swain and Amumu need nerfs. XD
> [{quoted}](name=Antenora,realm=EUW,application-id=GgNYATV4,discussion-id=n9K1zldZ,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-11-15T22:52:55.119+0000) > > Imagine thinking Swain and Amumu need nerfs. > > XD They do need nerfs.
: About Yuumi
I've got another suggestion. It might suck but it synergizes with her anchor: Make it to where she can only anchor herself to a single champ for a set period of time. Since her anchor has no CD or cost, it would encourage transferring and discourage babysitting while making it easier to deal with her when need be. To compensate, you could boost her health and defense stats so when she's not anchored, she wouldn't get one-shotted by everything.
: If you are losing to a Yuumi every time she is played, then maybe you are just a bad player. There is no reason why any one should lose to a Yuumi carry. It has been stated many time, "Yuumi does no damage!" It is true and you also said it yourself, "If you buff her she becomes god, and if you nerf her she becomes Useless." It looks to me that you are just trying to get the champion to never be played again, and Riot will not let that happen to any champion. Your attempt at getting her nerfed is pointless.
I don't lose to Yuumi and Yuumi doesn't make her team win. She just so happens to be well at her job which makes winning a little bit easier than it should. I don't believe I said she didn't do damage but I remember talking about her late and mid game Q damage. Her being buffed is only problematic because she is untargettable. I've said that. If she was targettable, then buffing her would be sensible but since you can't hit her, buffing her would be excessive. In other words, you're giving her more rewards with little to no risks when she's untargettable and you'd be giving her more rewards but also more risks when you make her targettable. Like every other champ. Think back to Akali when she had her new shroud. Even turrets couldn't target her.
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