Krinu (NA)
: Soraka feels AWFUL to play as a support now
welcome to the hell that is a mana hungry support with little to no ability to effect the lane (without hyper active and good jungle/ADC). You will find much like Sona, that your play style with Soraka will now suck unless you get ahead or wait till the 15-20 min mark.
BigFBear (EUW)
: WTF WHAT ?? xD Ahahahaha you are right... He played against a Voli Bot and then made a cry thread. Lmao, this is comedy gold.
> [{quoted}](name=BigFBear,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vtW2W9pa,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2020-02-22T06:50:33.769+0000) > > WTF > WHAT ?? xD > > Ahahahaha you are right... > He played against a Voli Bot and then made a cry thread. > Lmao, this is comedy gold. it's a viable champion pick, in extreamely niche situations...
: A Suggestion on Reducing Support Item Poaching
not going to lie, didn't read the whole thing. That said, be happy they are nerfing those items next patch. Spell thief (and likely sickle) will only trigger the on hit when near allies, much like how the other two items work. Came back, might i suggest changing the trigger status to 5 out of 9 instead of 4 out of 6. For champions like Sona or Bard where you often trigger twice in a basic attack, it's very easy to burn through 4 charges while your ADC is returning from base. I think it would be a good idea for the reduced income to auto kick at the first item upgrade. Then if it's not active, there is no risk of it triggering after. Really sucks to be a support and suddenly your getting even less money because you needed to roam to clear wards / reach an objective / etc.... and ran into enemies.
Meltys (EUW)
: Thay will revert it next patch and make spelltheif "most be near an ally" restriction. So we Sona mains will have to take a break and play some aram or something else in the meantime.
> [{quoted}](name=Meltys,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KqVGhUEb,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2020-02-22T03:04:26.534+0000) > > Thay will revert it next patch and make spelltheif "most be near an ally" restriction. So we Sona mains will have to take a break and play some aram or something else in the meantime. So now the question is "how close" do you have to be to trigger? Maybe we will get lucky and they will up her aura range so that tagging allies isn't such a pain (now that you NEED to do it)
: Can we change surrendering?
or people could follow the Korean way of doing this. You fucking FF at 15 when the game is clearly lost and don't force your team mates to burn extra time because you want to be a troll / think you can "still totally win" this 5-27 game where your down 2-3 turrets and lost every lane.
: IS IT OK TO JUDGE A SUPPORT BASED ON KILLS?
Both examples are a bad support. The first one because it's something like a death a minute while up, the second one is kill stealing and starving their ally of needed gold. 0/16/32 doesn't always equal bad, there are points where this is fine (the enemy team is trolling you in fountain) 15/8/2 is fine if you're not actively stealing the kills. I've played Sona and gotten mad kills because my ADC got nuked first and i got a bunch of clean up kills and snowballed.
Comentários de Rioters
: They will revert the hotfix nerfs next patch, but the mana thing is here to stay since they said it slightly buffed her support role.
> [{quoted}](name=chipndip1,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zzAzRukm,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2020-02-21T22:48:16.048+0000) > > They will revert the hotfix nerfs next patch, but the mana thing is here to stay since they said it slightly buffed her support role. I hope you are right (though i think the mana thing is still a nerf to support Sona, even if Riot is going to claim different). I think that Nerf into hotfix (hours later) MORE NERFS was way to much.
: I would really like to know how that works on sona , like seriously how is that going to help sona support?
> [{quoted}](name=BenBaxter,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zzAzRukm,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2020-02-21T22:30:34.365+0000) > > I would really like to know how that works on sona , like seriously how is that going to help sona support? It doesn't; but Riot will likely point to top 1-3% of players/games, where Sona is NEVER without a teammate, and say something like "we gave her -5 mana on all her abilities, what more do you want?" I think it's insane that they went: Buff, [your personal movement speed is now 150% better at level 1, and it scales mildly better] (10.2), mild nerf but still better then she was [we went to hard on the personal movement speed, so we are taking some of it back... but it's still 100% better then it was] (10.3), Hard nerf [ALL your spells now cost 23-50% more mana} (10.4), fuck you nerf {we took away ALL of that bonus movement speed buff, took some of your base AD and lowered your scaling AD.... but you have to still deal with the 23-50% more expensive spells, because we hate you} (10.4 hot fix)
NoPaxt (NA)
: 10.4 Jungle
So far not the juggernauts they pushed. {{champion:86}} and {{champion:122}} make terrible jungles (no engage tools till they are on top of you) unless you build around them.
Pika Fox (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=floo,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pFuXyXGj,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2020-02-21T12:33:02.887+0000) > > Flash pretty much exists to allow immobile champions to be able to compete in league of mobility. No, it doesnt. Flash is objectively better on mobile champions than immobile ones. Removing flash would only serve to benefit immobile champions more.
> [{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pFuXyXGj,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2020-02-21T12:34:55.904+0000) > > No, it doesnt. Flash is objectively better on mobile champions than immobile ones. Removing flash would only serve to benefit immobile champions more. sure, once Riot put in tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of hours into balancing the game into a world without flash. Hope you didn't like basically any of the mobility options, because those are all going to have to go. Sure sounds super fun to have to balance {{champion:37}} and {{champion:39}} so that they both have roughly equal levels of mobility in the game. Sure sounds like a good use of time and money to make {{champion:122}} and {{champion:80}} both lack gap closing mechanics.
Comentários de Rioters
: > [{quoted}](name=FakeGravity,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=l2tjV5wJ,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2020-02-21T18:59:51.660+0000) > > riot see any champion going support but it isn't their primary role: > -riot " oh cool, sure you can do that, in fact lets balance around that" > -morgana and lux "wait i'm only here because midlane isn't going well for me lately" > - riot "yup yup sure, lets just give you base stats and butcher your scaling" > > riot see a support getting out of support role: > -riot "how dare you?! go back to botlane you freak" > -soraka and sona top "but we are just here because the toplaners that could destroy us suck, why dont you do something for them?" > -riot "you dare to talk to me like that?, -5 ms" Thats the thing tho. Top lane's problem is NOT champion related, its game related. Now that Soraka is nerfed, watch Janna and other similar supports do well top. Its because of how little impact top has on the outcome of the game.
> [{quoted}](name=8 Lamar Jackson,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=l2tjV5wJ,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2020-02-21T19:02:24.983+0000) > > Thats the thing tho. Top lane's problem is NOT champion related, its game related. Now that Soraka is nerfed, watch Janna and other similar supports do well top. Its because of how little impact top has on the outcome of the game. I've heard rumor that Senna is now seeing top play, because why not switch out one "broken" sustain support for another. But i'll also bet you that they don't nerf her out of the lane because she is a much more popular support.
: After playing her support yesterday I'd be fine if they just doubled down on the "refund mana if ally nearby" instead of this shit. Ya'll don't need to nuke support Sona because she's insufferable top
> [{quoted}](name=DollaMenunaire,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1xPIO7LX,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2020-02-21T15:57:16.109+0000) > > After playing her support yesterday I'd be fine if they just doubled down on the "refund mana if ally nearby" instead of this shit. Ya'll don't need to nuke support Sona because she's insufferable top I think that if they had upped Sona's aura range as a compensation buff (and not touched the other things) she might have been fine. It still sucks balls that you have to burn extra mana to get back to lane, hold the lane while your ally is away, roam to deal with wards, etc.... But did they really need to double down on Sona remaining shackled to her ally? At least with champs like {{champion:350}} or {{champion:44}} their is some decent benefit to being that close to your ally all the time.
Sylaelque (EUW)
: Btw, {{champion:16}} and {{champion:37}} still have 54% wr with a very high play rate in the top lane even after changes.
> [{quoted}](name=Sylaelque,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1xPIO7LX,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2020-02-21T10:12:21.920+0000) > > Btw, {{champion:16}} and {{champion:37}} still have 54% wr with a very high play rate in the top lane even after changes. The patch has been out for A DAY. and a chunk of that day she still had decent movement speed.
Matha (EUW)
: Again, why flash still exists?
Simple problem with removing it, you have to rework dozens upon dozens of champions to compensate for it's lack of existence.
: I'm actually kinda pissed riot hotfixed sunfire so quickly
From what i hear it was less "this tank item is too good" and more "this tank item is too good, on {{champion:516}} "
: Option To Turn Leaver Buster Off
If you can't commit the time to play a game, then don't play the game. Shit comes up, no one is going to argue that. But if you KNOW you can't commit the 30-40 mins to a game, then don't play a game that takes 25-35 mins. People can say they are fine with it all they want, but they are lying through their teeth. You have 30-ish mins till you need to do something, you aren't going to be happy when some jag-off leaves at 15 mins and ruins your chance to get a game in.
Comentários de Rioters
Comentários de Rioters
IMelchorI (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Illabethe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8vNL9RXH,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2020-02-18T12:00:16.649+0000) > > It's not imbalance. It actually IS balanced..... in the sense of a game of chess. A rook doesn't have the same powers as a bishop or a knight. Champions are not all Pawns who can only move one space forward. > > Many games' core values are based around at least a triad of hard counter rock paper scissors as well; Warriors beat Rogues while Rogues beat Mages while Mages beat Warriors. > > In both of these situations, when you put two of a kind against each other, what happens? > > In Chess, a Rook in line with a Rook will never happen, because it's one of the most obvious "If I do this, I will lose one of my most influential pieces." Thus, in a vacuum, Rook vs Rook is a stalemate. > > When Warrior vs Warrior happens, it's a draw. same with Rock vs Rock. > > In contrast.....League players have gotten overly satisfied with Warrior vs Warrior top lane exchanges and forgot about triangular balance and when they have to encounter it, they cry foul about balance. the difference to chess is that a player controlls more than one single unit. nobody wants to play a game where the lane is decided in champ select and your ability to win or lose lane only depends on your luck how you are positioned in the draft order. especially since this games matchmaking has no problems thorwing you into first pick position 5 games in a row.
> [{quoted}](name=IMelchorI,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8vNL9RXH,comment-id=0004000000000000,timestamp=2020-02-18T12:11:06.358+0000) > > the difference to chess is that a player controlls more than one single unit. > > nobody wants to play a game where the lane is decided in champ select and your ability to win or lose lane only depends on your luck how you are positioned in the draft order. > > especially since this games matchmaking has no problems thorwing you into first pick position 5 games in a row. This is super funny. I love how far your head is up your own ass. What are you really asking for here? Do you want a "competitive" mode where the players can't see what everyone is picking till the game starts (maybe not till one of them sees your champion in game... you know for true secrecy)? You want to invest 20-40 mins per game into 100% blind picks?
: "The climb takes a lot longer now. This is intentional." Ok riot, ok.
> [{quoted}](name=option paralysis,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Qv0zs7Qi,comment-id=,timestamp=2020-02-18T10:56:03.326+0000) > > This is so dumb I can't even put it in words, man. So basically if you have a really good win rate or high mmr without even fucking smurfing, your climb will be longer, even longer than before. > > Your rank is for example gold, but you're gonna be playing vs. plats and diamonds. Makes sense, right ???? > > And the dumbest thing is they act like this is for smurfing, cmon man, this is literally to make people play more and grind more. > Fucking disgusting. *bitch bitch moan* Ok then how would YOU fix the issue with smurfs? What is YOUR suggestion for how to keep people in Diamond+ from stomping all over Silver-gold elo for easy wins / blowing off steam?
: Braum, Leona, Tahm and Nautilus very well may see top lane play after the Sunfire changes go through. Leona with Omnirune thingy could very well be something, and having a cheap but effective build i think is going to open the lane up for her. Sunfire+Gauntlet in theory, should be VERY efficient on her.
> [{quoted}](name=PhearBunny,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=g5eI3Bmb,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2020-02-14T16:11:25.529+0000) > > Braum, Leona, Tahm and Nautilus very well may see top lane play after the Sunfire changes go through. > Leona with Omnirune thingy could very well be something, and having a cheap but effective build i think is going to open the lane up for her. > Sunfire+Gauntlet in theory, should be VERY efficient on her. I feel like they don't "count" they are tanks (support tanks but tanks none the less) so it's not "surprising" to see them in the top lane with a bunch of other tanks / bruisers. Also wasn't Naut designed to be a top lane pick? He just went bot because a stun on your auto is kind of broken for a support.
Comentários de Rioters
: Thats the point: The nerfs are targeting her ability to solo lane. Thats the problem with her right now, same with Soraka.
> [{quoted}](name=Ragnaveil,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RaiRZc93,comment-id=000100010000,timestamp=2020-02-13T18:25:25.013+0000) > > Thats the point: The nerfs are targeting her ability to solo lane. Thats the problem with her right now, same with Soraka. The issue is that there are a lot of times when you need to be able to mildly solo. I can give you a big list of those times if you want, but i'm pretty sure that this nerf is going to dumpster Sona support (while MAYBE stopping sona top...) As for your other response. I'm not saying ignore the top lane grievances. I'm saying that till they ACTUALLY deal with the issue, your just going to keep getting top lane range champions dunking on the melee one.
: > [{quoted}](name=Pika310,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RaiRZc93,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2020-02-13T06:39:20.897+0000) > > Sona is already statistically the weakest support in the game, she can't go any lower than rock bottom. "Top lane Sona" is a troll gimmick that's only "played" by a singular Youtuber, purely for sheer entertainment value. Her pickrate (in every "role") doesn't even vaguely reflect anything resembling the amount of verbal attention she's unjustifiably receiving. Meanwhile, Meddler's idea of amusement is pretending to buff her so that he can intentionally queue nerfs to her the following patch, before the "buff" even goes Live. > > Let's not kid ourselves. Sona is already unplayable. Has been since patch 4.13 & will continue to be until they remove her R-passive. Until that happens, she will continue to be Rito's joke character, to repeatedly nerf while laughing at her fans. Its so funny to watch you in every single Sona post QQing about how she was "destroyed" in 4.13. >Sona is already statistically the weakest support in the game, she can't go any lower than rock bottom. False. Dia+, TK, 1.4% pr 45% wr, Zyra/Brand 2% pr 48%, Sona 3% pr 48% wr >"Top lane Sona" is a troll gimmick that's only "played" by a singular Youtuber, purely for sheer entertainment value. 2,3% pr top lane. Is Panth, Ryze, Rumble, Singed, Illaoi etc played only by one youtuber for sheer entertainment value? They share same pr, but their wr is at best(Singed with 53%) 3% apart(Sona at 56%). >Her pickrate (in every "role") doesn't even vaguely reflect anything resembling the amount of verbal attention she's unjustifiably receiving. But her disgusting wr does. >Let's not kid ourselves. Sona is already unplayable. Not according to stats. >Has been since patch 4.13 You just need to swallow it. You are delusional. You have been meme for ever, here on boards, on reddit, on sona mains. I mean, it kinda made you famous, "That one guy who thinks Sona needs to be reverted" lol
> [{quoted}](name=Jng Account,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RaiRZc93,comment-id=00050001,timestamp=2020-02-13T08:32:20.892+0000) > > Its so funny to watch you in every single Sona post QQing about how she was "destroyed" in 4.13. > > False. Dia+, TK, 1.4% pr 45% wr, Zyra/Brand 2% pr 48%, Sona 3% pr 48% wr > > 2,3% pr top lane. Is Panth, Ryze, Rumble, Singed, Illaoi etc played only by one youtuber for sheer entertainment value? They share same pr, but their wr is at best(Singed with 53%) 3% apart(Sona at 56%). > > But her disgusting wr does. > > Not according to stats. > > You just need to swallow it. You are delusional. > > You have been meme for ever, here on boards, on reddit, on sona mains. I mean, it kinda made you famous, "That one guy who thinks Sona needs to be reverted" lol I will give the guy one thing. The issue is NOT sona or soraka. I'm pretty sure you could run Bard into top lane and do pretty well, he has basically all the same tools those two have (range, CC, self heal, roam power, ability to effect other lanes, etc...). The issue is that range, and a little bit of speed, will basically always have the advantage over melee only champions with limited engage tools. I do miss some of Sona's kit from pre 4.13. Like the ability to weave your passives together was pretty sweet, If it couldn't have been done from a screen+ length away (1000 range), it would have been "fine".
Paroe (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=only zhule,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RaiRZc93,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2020-02-13T07:27:14.697+0000) > > If you are going to lie, please do so better. At 160 mana it's a 8 second base cooldown, and i have seen plenty of Yuumi's be able to get off land a single auto and zip back to their ADC (it's not "easy" but it is VERY do able) My bad, i always have CDR. It doesnt change the fact that her passive is useless in the face of aggression though. Her attack range is 500 and its very easy to tell when shes floating at you; A single basic attack or ability can deal significant damage. Beyond that, once laning phase is over _there is nothing you can do with your passive, making it moot._ > Comparing Sona to Taric is like comparing apples to oranges. They have some similarities but they are VASTLY different. Taric can rather easily heal, trigger his passive and then heal again with 3 charges, all of which takes MAYBE 1 second. Taric could also have his ally be close by and thus double benefit from his heal. There are a lot of "ifs" when comparing the two... i just don't want to go into ALL of them. But... You were the one comparing Sona and Taric. I was responding to _you_. > > The issue is how close she has to be. I'm not going to argue that her 1000 range always on buffs weren'y stupid. But having to basically kiss the allies cheek, to buff them, went to far. Up the aura range by like 100-150 and that issue goes away, without letting her be a back line powerhouse. There are too many abilities that AOE to force Sona to stay within 400 range of her ally all the time. The reason for those changes is to make sona more visible and more readily punishable. In her previous state she had a lot of invisible power and could easily be in the far back line while affecting the front line. Riot didnt like that, so they changed it. You only have to _TAG ALLIES_ though, the buffs are not persistent. While it is true that 400 range is 'short', its fine and something that you should have gotten used to by now. Honestly it seems like your complaints arent _real complaints_ and more just general salt over sona being changed _what, over five years ago now?_
> [{quoted}](name=Paroe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RaiRZc93,comment-id=00030000000000000000,timestamp=2020-02-13T07:55:15.963+0000) > > My bad, i always have CDR. > It doesnt change the fact that her passive is useless in the face of aggression though. Her attack range is 500 and its very easy to tell when shes floating at you; A single basic attack or ability can deal significant damage. > Beyond that, once laning phase is over _there is nothing you can do with your passive, making it moot._ > > But... You were the one comparing Sona and Taric. I was responding to _you_. My bad thought you were the first person i was responding to, who originally made the comparison. I hold to my comment that it's bad to compare them, much like it would be bad to compare Pyke to Nautilus. > The reason for those changes is to make sona more visible and more readily punishable. In her previous state she had a lot of invisible power and could easily be in the far back line while affecting the front line. Riot didnt like that, so they changed it. You only have to _TAG ALLIES_ though, the buffs are not persistent. > While it is true that 400 range is 'short', its fine and something that you should have gotten used to by now. > > Honestly it seems like your complaints arent _real complaints_ and more just general salt over sona being changed _what, over five years ago now?_ You seem to be missing that this heavily changes the importance of tagging your ally. Before i didn't need to tag my ally every time i went to poke the enemy. +10-30 (20% scaling) magic damage on a single auto attack is a pretty easy thing to not care about, it's small and a chunk of it is eaten by resistances anyway. But now my poke cost 50-26% more unless i tag my ally. So now it's not just a matter of 10-30 bonus magic damage, its a matter of lane pressure down the line. i land my poke but my ADC won't move up to get tagged and i miss them by like 1/4 of a second, this happens 2 times might as well have just cast Q with no targets. Using my movement speed boost to get back into lane is going to set me back an additional 50-100 mana. Imagine doing this same kind of thing to other champions, suddenly Ahri's spells all cost 30-40% more (unless X thing happens) that clearly going to effect how she plays in lane; Ashe's abilities all cost 33% more, but she gets a partial refund if she tags an enemy champion. Or let's use a pretty simple comparison, do this same thing to Nami, her bubble HAS to knock someone up to give the partial refund, her poke/heal HAS to heal an ALLY to give the refund. Would you play Nami if her mana costs were all increased by 20-50%? Would it matter that in a perfect world, they technically had their costs reduced, you just have to play perfectly. The big issue with Sona's auras is that they are just so very very bad / meh. +10-30 (20% scaling) damage on a single auto attack (doesn't work against structures); a shield, 25-125 (30% scaling), that lasts for 1.5 seconds; and 10-14% (3% scaling) bonus movement speed for 3 seconds. None of these are good effects by themselves. None of them scream "better make sure my ally gets this as well" every time i want to use it.
Paroe (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=only zhule,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RaiRZc93,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2020-02-13T05:17:45.744+0000) > > Yuumi's heal also gives movement speed and attack speed. She has a passive that gives her mana upon attacking enemy champions. For 160 mana, she has a heal with an MS and attack speed buff. And its on a 10 second cooldown to boot. As for her passive, anyone who has played Yuumi more than once will tell you that in the face of aggression _you cannot get off your carry or risk death_. > How often do you see a Taric spamming his heal? But lets compare them, Taric's level 3 heal is the same amount as Sona's level 4. It also will cost him 5 mana less to use, and assuming he lands his autos has a much lower cooldown then even a level 16 sona could manage. 30 (+ 20% AP) (+ 1% of Taric's maximum health) per stored charge 30 / 50 / 70 / 90 / 110 (+ 25% AP)+ 25 / 50 / 75 / 100 / 125 (+ 30% AP) shield Sona actually builds AP and can spam hers off cooldown. Taric needs to let his sit for his cooldown multiplied by the number of charges. Beyond that, sona also builds heal and shield power. AND shields. Her heal is split between that and the shield, by the way... You cant just ignore it when comparing the abilities. > The issue is that the auras remains PAINFULLY small. Like i wouldn't be saying shit if the aura was like 100-150 units larger. Big enough that tagging your ally isn't a mild headache, but small enough that she still has to stay around the mid to front line to effect the game. Like lets be honest here, it will usually make the heal cheaper. But your going to miss like 10-15% of your Q aura tags and probably miss 30%+ of your E tags (since you usually want to use it to get back to lane/ get to an objective). That stuff adds up fast when you have a champion with a small-ish mana pool and already pretty high base mana costs. Im sure youve noticed, but the last time Sona was reworked she was meant to be near the marksman. Thats never going to change, and you should realistically get used to building differently in a solo lane and learning to play as intended support. Fact of the matter is the solo lane nerfs for sona are _very well thought out_ and actually solve the problem in a way that doesnt harm her intended role unless you try to play ardent meta and hang out at the maximum range just facerolling sustain.
> [{quoted}](name=Paroe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RaiRZc93,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2020-02-13T06:53:53.167+0000) > > For 160 mana, she has a heal with an MS and attack speed buff. And its on a 10 second cooldown to boot. > As for her passive, anyone who has played Yuumi more than once will tell you that in the face of aggression _you cannot get off your carry or risk death_. If you are going to lie, please do so better. At 160 mana it's a 8 second base cooldown, and i have seen plenty of Yuumi's be able to get off land a single auto and zip back to their ADC (it's not "easy" but it is VERY do able) > 30 (+ 20% AP) (+ 1% of Taric's maximum health) per stored charge > 30 / 50 / 70 / 90 / 110 (+ 25% AP)+ 25 / 50 / 75 / 100 / 125 (+ 30% AP) shield > > Sona actually builds AP and can spam hers off cooldown. Taric needs to let his sit for his cooldown multiplied by the number of charges. Beyond that, sona also builds heal and shield power. AND shields. Her heal is split between that and the shield, by the way... You cant just ignore it when comparing the abilities. > Comparing Sona to Taric is like comparing apples to oranges. They have some similarities but they are VASTLY different. Taric can rather easily heal, trigger his passive and then heal again with 3 charges, all of which takes MAYBE 1 second. Taric could also have his ally be close by and thus double benefit from his heal. There are a lot of "ifs" when comparing the two... i just don't want to go into ALL of them. > Im sure youve noticed, but the last time Sona was reworked she was meant to be near the marksman. Thats never going to change, and you should realistically get used to building differently in a solo lane and learning to play as intended support. > > Fact of the matter is the solo lane nerfs for sona are _very well thought out_ and actually solve the problem in a way that doesnt harm her intended role unless you try to play ardent meta and hang out at the maximum range just facerolling sustain. The issue is how close she has to be. I'm not going to argue that her 1000 range always on buffs weren'y stupid. But having to basically kiss the allies cheek, to buff them, went to far. Up the aura range by like 100-150 and that issue goes away, without letting her be a back line powerhouse. There are too many abilities that AOE to force Sona to stay within 400 range of her ally all the time. You want Sona to stick that close to her ADC, make her kit do some thing when you're that close. Split the difference between her pre 4.13 kit and the new version. Instead of always on abilities, they only stay up for 3 seconds but it's a constant buff during those 3 seconds. Refund more mana when you tag an ally, 45-65 mana to do 40-160 damage is still rather poor (i don't care that it auto targets). 75-95 mana to heal 30-110 is still a pretty garbage rate. Having to pay 90 mana per cast to get your speed up is way too much. I tend to blow through 2-4 usages of E to get from fountain back to first turret, so that's an additional 50-100 mana i don't have upon returning to lane (or an additional 10+ seconds i'm not there to help my ADC). I want to clear wards, guess i won't have 50 mana for damage or heals when my team tried to take an objective. Oh no my ADC got dove, i can either die "trying" to save them, or go OOM because i had to run away (and then not have the mana to heal them when they manage to survive that gank). The nerf goes too hard, and it doesn't fix the issue. Let's be honest, what is stopping Bard from going top after these nerfs? He has range, has a heal, has CC, and can roam pretty well. What is keeping him from being just as much of an issue as Sona or Soraka top?
: she isn't going to be unplayable but she is going to end up in a weaker state than when they first buffed her. Like I don't even get the point of these changes. Support Sona isn't near someone all the time. If she is roaming to get wards, coming from base after recalling and pretty much just doing anything where she isn't near allies is just going to eat through her entire mana pool so quick. Why is it that they want her to be literally chained to someone at all times? this to me makes no sense whatsoever. It isn't even going to affect top lane Sona all that much since top Sona builds tear and a bunch of other mana items so the added cost isn't really going to affect her anywhere near as much as it will support Sona
> [{quoted}](name=ZephyrDrake,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RaiRZc93,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2020-02-13T03:47:55.238+0000) > > she isn't going to be unplayable but she is going to end up in a weaker state than when they first buffed her. Like I don't even get the point of these changes. Support Sona isn't near someone all the time. If she is roaming to get wards, coming from base after recalling and pretty much just doing anything where she isn't near allies is just going to eat through her entire mana pool so quick. Why is it that they want her to be literally chained to someone at all times? this to me makes no sense whatsoever. It isn't even going to affect top lane Sona all that much since top Sona builds tear and a bunch of other mana items so the added cost isn't really going to affect her anywhere near as much as it will support Sona I think my favorite thing is that this whole issue with Sona and Soraka top has been 1000% viable for MONTHS, just no one bothered trying. Now people are jumping on the band wagon and both champs are likely getting crippled in their "intended" role.
Kazekiba (NA)
: ... Yuumi's heal already costs 125 mana, Tarics is also ludicrously expensive and spammed far more. ANY Sona is going to build tear. An extra 20 mana per cast and then 30 mana refunded for tagging an ally within 3 seconds of casting is neutral if less than half of your casts are on an ally...
> [{quoted}](name=Kazekiba,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RaiRZc93,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2020-02-13T04:20:44.573+0000) > > ... Yuumi's heal already costs 125 mana, Tarics is also ludicrously expensive and spammed far more. > ANY Sona is going to build tear. > An extra 20 mana per cast and then 30 mana refunded for tagging an ally within 3 seconds of casting is neutral if less than half of your casts are on an ally... Yuumi's heal also gives movement speed and attack speed. She has a passive that gives her mana upon attacking enemy champions. How often do you see a Taric spamming his heal? But lets compare them, Taric's level 3 heal is the same amount as Sona's level 4. It also will cost him 5 mana less to use, and assuming he lands his autos has a much lower cooldown then even a level 16 sona could manage. The issue is that the auras remains PAINFULLY small. Like i wouldn't be saying shit if the aura was like 100-150 units larger. Big enough that tagging your ally isn't a mild headache, but small enough that she still has to stay around the mid to front line to effect the game. Like lets be honest here, it will usually make the heal cheaper. But your going to miss like 10-15% of your Q aura tags and probably miss 30%+ of your E tags (since you usually want to use it to get back to lane/ get to an objective). That stuff adds up fast when you have a champion with a small-ish mana pool and already pretty high base mana costs.
Skýcrow (EUW)
: Nah not really. My second to go trick is sona, after i readet ur post i wanted to see the changes for myself. Basically you don't loose any mana if ur passives proc on ur adc aswell. Which means it makes almost zero difference on the laning phase. U usually want to have a redemption anyways, so once lane is over u have around +12mana per second so those changes are clearly no issues. Does she get kinda weaker? yeah a little. Is she "nearly unplayable as u stated" Not even close. The reason why riot does this is because they don't want her being played top and tbh this is actually pretty smart in a way. If this somehow leads to a bad winrate (which i heavenly doubt) they can always buff her a little. lol
> [{quoted}](name=Skýcrow,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RaiRZc93,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2020-02-13T04:03:27.235+0000) > > Nah not really. My second to go trick is sona, after i readet ur post i wanted to see the changes for myself. Basically you don't loose any mana if ur passives proc on ur adc aswell. Which means it makes almost zero difference on the laning phase. U usually want to have a redemption anyways, so once lane is over u have around +12mana per second so those changes are clearly no issues. Does she get kinda weaker? yeah a little. Is she "nearly unplayable as u stated" Not even close. > > The reason why riot does this is because they don't want her being played top and tbh this is actually pretty smart in a way. If this somehow leads to a bad winrate (which i heavenly doubt) they can always buff her a little. lol You find that you manage to tag your ally EVERYTIME you use an ability? Do you tag your ally after EVERY spell cast? If so congrats this is a big buff, Sona's spells now cost 5 mana less. If no, then **** you your spells now cost 20-70 mana more PER rotation. Hope you weren't looking to roam against wards, getting anywhere quickly, heal after a bad fight, clear minions, generally not be shackled to your ally.
Comentários de Rioters
Anu3isII (EUNE)
: They actually plan on buffing her Mana costs when she tags someone. If she builds {{item:3070}} / {{item:3003}} , then her costs are significantly decreased.
> [{quoted}](name=Anu3isII,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tqgsnlYx,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2020-02-12T22:23:29.066+0000) > > They actually plan on buffing her Mana costs when she tags someone. If she builds {{item:3070}} / {{item:3003}} , then her costs are significantly decreased. problem is they are such dead items when you really need CDR and bonus healing during the early game (suppose you could max heal first, but feels underwhelming in lane). Like i know tear "solves" the mana issue but when i have to pick between tear (which i WONT upgrade till late) or a part of my {{item:3174}} / {{item:3504}} i'm basically always going to pick the second option (they just do SO MUCH MORE).
Done25 (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=DartExplosion10,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tqgsnlYx,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2020-02-12T20:30:50.584+0000) > > its ok theyre increasing all her mana costs by 30 next patch No they aren't. They're *increasing* them by 25, and refunding 30 if she tags an ally.
> [{quoted}](name=Done25,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tqgsnlYx,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2020-02-12T20:41:43.242+0000) > > No they aren't. They're *increasing* them by 25, and refunding 30 if she tags an ally. i feel like you are lying. But honestly this is fine. something to off set how expensive her kit is early (without having to invest into {{item:3070}} when i REALLY need my CDR) is really all i want.
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: There are ranged champions which are intended to be top laners: {{champion:6}} {{champion:150}} {{champion:126}} {{champion:10}} {{champion:133}} So no, having a "filter" doesn't solve the problem.
> [{quoted}](name=Chembaron Yamada,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=B64LJQE9,comment-id=000000010003,timestamp=2020-02-09T19:50:13.519+0000) > > There are ranged champions which are intended to be top laners: > {{champion:6}} {{champion:150}} {{champion:126}} {{champion:10}} {{champion:133}} > So no, having a "filter" doesn't solve the problem. But didn't you see their follow up post. The filter is this Frankenstein's monster of a thing. It's somehow suppose to keep Top lane free of range champions (except a handful of "exempt" ones; like Teemo, Jace, Urgot, Gnar, ....), while also keeping bruisers out of mid, mages out of bot, etc... You know this impossible to balance garbage dump of changes that Riot would need to spend tens of thousands of man hours to implement and millions of hours to tune (likely with minor to major changes every time a new champion came out / reworked)
: I wonder if the issue is with Soraka or her Itemization, and that of the opposing team. Both Redemption and Athene's boost the potency of her healing and are core items on a solo lane Soraka build. On the other hand, I was watching the LEC yesterday, and during the Renegades V Mad Lions match, which had Aatrox against Soraka, only Hans sama built a grievous wounds item even though Morellonomicon, Thorn Mail, and Executioner's Calling were available. At least in this one case, it seems that Renegades chose to ignore healing reduction and tried to power through. Nor did it occur to them to run their own utility champ in top lane. What, then, is the point of all their coaching staff if no one among them can figure out how to counter healing without Riot stepping in and trying to force champions into specific roles?
> [{quoted}](name=Sluiceway,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=B64LJQE9,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2020-02-09T18:53:37.443+0000) > > I wonder if the issue is with Soraka or her Itemization, and that of the opposing team. Both Redemption and Athene's boost the potency of her healing and are core items on a solo lane Soraka build. On the other hand, I was watching the LEC yesterday, and during the Renegades V Mad Lions match, which had Aatrox against Soraka, only Hans sama built a grievous wounds item even though Morellonomicon, Thorn Mail, and Executioner's Calling were available. At least in this one case, it seems that Renegades chose to ignore healing reduction and tried to power through. Nor did it occur to them to run their own utility champ in top lane. What, then, is the point of all their coaching staff if no one among them can figure out how to counter healing without Riot stepping in and trying to force champions into specific roles? 1v1 Sona vs Soraka, pre level 6. Who do you bet on?
: or instead of setting arbitrary rules that serve no purpose except to preserve an arbitrary gameplay trend, they could just acknowledge that in a setting where all everyone wants to do is play 1v1 melee vs melee, there is always going to be a ranged kiting champ that counterpicks most of the usual suspects. it has been like that literally for years. its almost like counterpicks evolve out of there being holes in the commonly played strategies. the baboons in top lane seem to think theyre entitled to some safe space where they can hang a "no girls allowed" sign up and force everyone to play on their terms. theres literally no reason why top lane has to be melee only. just like there was literally no reason for years why the mid lane had to be mage vs mage, or bot lane had to be adc + support. then at some point, people realized assassins beat mages, and they became popular mids. nobody had to drum up a law to stop that from happening, everyone jsut adapted. or when mages became the new support ("enchanter") and basically annie and brand and zyra begame muscling out damn near every traditional support champ. nobody cried wolf there. but top lane for some reason is sacred, and needs to be preserved? nah. deal with it. this is what the metagame evolving actually entails. you dont get to pick and choose how the OTHER team plays the game. if youre getting countered, maybe you need to adjust yourself, instead of crying to mom and pop "mom, soraka is up here, shes not supposed to be here, this isnt fair". or vayne, or vlad back in his hayday. this is the reason the state of league is so sad, that theres so many people that don't like thinking or adjusting, they just want riot to police the game instead of figuring out what they should be doing different.
> [{quoted}](name=CHODES AND LOADS,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=B64LJQE9,comment-id=000000010002,timestamp=2020-02-09T16:10:55.827+0000) > > or instead of setting arbitrary rules that serve no purpose except to preserve an arbitrary gameplay trend, they could just acknowledge that in a setting where all everyone wants to do is play 1v1 melee vs melee, there is always going to be a ranged kiting champ that counterpicks most of the usual suspects. it has been like that literally for years. its almost like counterpicks evolve out of there being holes in the commonly played strategies. > > the baboons in top lane seem to think theyre entitled to some safe space where they can hang a "no girls allowed" sign up and force everyone to play on their terms. > > theres literally no reason why top lane has to be melee only. just like there was literally no reason for years why the mid lane had to be mage vs mage, or bot lane had to be adc + support. then at some point, people realized assassins beat mages, and they became popular mids. nobody had to drum up a law to stop that from happening, everyone jsut adapted. or when mages became the new support ("enchanter") and basically annie and brand and zyra begame muscling out damn near every traditional support champ. nobody cried wolf there. > > but top lane for some reason is sacred, and needs to be preserved? nah. deal with it. this is what the metagame evolving actually entails. you dont get to pick and choose how the OTHER team plays the game. if youre getting countered, maybe you need to adjust yourself, instead of crying to mom and pop "mom, soraka is up here, shes not supposed to be here, this isnt fair". or vayne, or vlad back in his hayday. > > this is the reason the state of league is so sad, that theres so many people that don't like thinking or adjusting, they just want riot to police the game instead of figuring out what they should be doing different. going to have to correct one thing here. A LOT of people call bullshit that champions like Annie, Brand, and Zyra are viable supports. But that has more to do with the fact that traditional supports haven't been allowed to be "good" in non support lanes for years (you sometimes get lucky and someone breaks the mold, but it's usually 1 champ and Riot fixes that during the season)
: > [{quoted}](name=KFCeytron,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=B64LJQE9,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2020-02-09T08:01:11.852+0000) > > This change moves some of Soraka's survivability into the assumption that she's in a duo lane by reducing the strength of her Q while mitigating some of the cost of her W. It's intended to put a stop to solo lane Soraka, because her Q is nearly instant in melee range and there's a lot of that in top lane where she's been causing problems for a few days now. Or, instead of nerfing individual champs ad nauseam because they're breaking top lane as ranged champs, they could just place an xp and gold filter for the first 10 minutes to get ranged champs out of top lane, and stop this issue once and for all.
> [{quoted}](name=Crescent Dusk,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=B64LJQE9,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2020-02-09T08:29:51.560+0000) > > Or, instead of nerfing individual champs ad nauseam because they're breaking top lane as ranged champs, they could just place an xp and gold filter for the first 10 minutes to get ranged champs out of top lane, and stop this issue once and for all. I'm curious what your thought process is here. Like how does this "filter" work? What keeps me from lane swapping with my mid if the filter is only on top lane? How does this filter effect "top" champions with range abilities/attacks? Can i no longer play {{champion:126}} because his range option triggers the filter and thus stops me from getting the proper amount of gold/exp? Is the issue less gold / exp, and more characters abusing support items for a free influx of gold for the first 5 mins (before they trade it out for proper gear)?
Comentários de Rioters
: > [{quoted}](name=only zhule,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zMfEtnuP,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2020-02-01T00:50:00.906+0000) > > When you say 3rd item, do you mean {{item:3850}} (1st), boots (2nd), tank item (3rd)? Or starting item, boots, support item, support item, tank item? > > Also what tank item are you talking about? There are a few that are pretty strong on her. i mean spelltheifs athenes ardent iceborn so basically the second path you said. Can get boots whenever it doesnt really matter I also run barrier to help with being tanky. Usually I just run iceborne, if I need mr then id go locket or something.
> [{quoted}](name=Jeanne fan club,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zMfEtnuP,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2020-02-02T03:44:17.172+0000) > > i mean > spelltheifs > athenes > ardent > iceborn > so basically the second path you said. > > Can get boots whenever it doesnt really matter > I also run barrier to help with being tanky. > > Usually I just run iceborne, if I need mr then id go locket or something. That's the problem though. most characters do fine once you pump 7-8K gold into them. She needs answers (buffs) for the early game, not the mid/late game.
: Now that I have played a bit more sona I think they were doing the right thing with the E nerf, she is effectively a counter to hook/bind champions right now. You pop ur e as soon as you start jukeing and its a 100% dodge of any skillshot in the game. I run barrier when I play her support and build tank 3rd item and ur pretty much how Lucio was in overwatch, super easy to execute and extremely effective at not dying. Idk about lane sona I never see that but being able to dodge all skillshots is probably contributing to that.
> [{quoted}](name=Jeanne fan club,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zMfEtnuP,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2020-01-31T22:15:23.468+0000) > > Now that I have played a bit more sona I think they were doing the right thing with the E nerf, she is effectively a counter to hook/bind champions right now. You pop ur e as soon as you start jukeing and its a 100% dodge of any skillshot in the game. I run barrier when I play her support and build tank 3rd item and ur pretty much how Lucio was in overwatch, super easy to execute and extremely effective at not dying. Idk about lane sona I never see that but being able to dodge all skillshots is probably contributing to that. When you say 3rd item, do you mean {{item:3850}} (1st), boots (2nd), tank item (3rd)? Or starting item, boots, support item, support item, tank item? Also what tank item are you talking about? There are a few that are pretty strong on her.
: Remember when the majority of boards users were gushing about how balanced Sett was?
> [{quoted}](name=Apostle of Light,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xNZJHyQe,comment-id=,timestamp=2020-01-30T22:18:00.339+0000) > > And remember how everyone saying he was overpowered got downvoted? > > Well, he's now up to a 56% win rate with one of the highest play-rates in the game lmao. This is evidence for why Riot doesn't take the boards seriously. So many people on here have no clue what they're talking about. The issue is and remains that his kit is simple to understand. The numbers might be high, but you can pretty easily understand EVERYTHING he does. You don't have to know the 10 different weapon passive pairings of {{champion:523}} , or {{champion:235}} 's scaling support/ADC hybrid BS, and let's not even get into how much of a train wreck {{champion:350}} and {{champion:517}} where.
Comentários de Rioters
: They're nerfing sona because shes literally become viable as a toplaner / midlaner and that should not be the case. What you said about Diana and Mordekaiser just isn't true; there's a Diana nerf on pbe RIGHT NOW and Morde was just nerfed a patch or two ago. Please learn the facts before you start complaining.
> [{quoted}](name=azzy butt,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FizeomXg,comment-id=002f,timestamp=2020-01-31T20:07:33.425+0000) > > They're nerfing sona because shes literally become viable as a toplaner / midlaner and that should not be the case. What you said about Diana and Mordekaiser just isn't true; there's a Diana nerf on pbe RIGHT NOW and Morde was just nerfed a patch or two ago. Please learn the facts before you start complaining. Or, and hear me out here. You could "nerf" the support items again, something simple like turning off the passive unless you have an ally within X (maybe 1000-1500) range. Something that doesn't really effect support Sona, but cripples the ability for Mid/Top Sona to function. You could have the reduced gold income per minions just be the default. Don't know many legit strats that have a support who uses {{item:3850}} or {{item:3863}} also have them actively want to get CS (and a loss of like 100-200 gold, from "accidental CS" over the lane phase is laughable). I just kind of wish they would give Sona more then a single patch to settle. Like from what i hear her win rate is steadily going down (it's still too high currently, but it is going down) as people get more and more use to her being faster/ being in lanes she use to not be viable in. I'm not saying give her a full season of being a problem, but give her more then a single patch (even more so if her win rate IS steadily going down) for people to get use to the "new" sona.
: > [{quoted}](name=Daddy Ants,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FizeomXg,comment-id=0009000000000000,timestamp=2020-01-30T18:40:27.828+0000) > > Which is what they're doing > > It's going down to 25% (+4% per 100 AP) to 20% (+3% per 100 AP). Yup No clue why anyone is complaining lol
> [{quoted}](name=BrokenRayquaza,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FizeomXg,comment-id=00090000000000000001,timestamp=2020-01-30T19:31:09.796+0000) > > Yup > > No clue why anyone is complaining lol because some of us are stupid and didn't know where to find the info. So we assumed it was a full revert or damn near.
: > [{quoted}](name=BrokenRayquaza,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FizeomXg,comment-id=000900000000,timestamp=2020-01-30T12:16:26.985+0000) > > You revert or tone down the Ms buff they gave her last patch Which is what they're doing It's going down to 25% (+4% per 100 AP) to 20% (+3% per 100 AP).
> [{quoted}](name=Daddy Ants,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FizeomXg,comment-id=0009000000000000,timestamp=2020-01-30T18:40:27.828+0000) > > Which is what they're doing > > It's going down to 25% (+4% per 100 AP) to 20% (+3% per 100 AP). thank you for giving the actual numbers. I had been worried we were looking at some bullshit like, 12% (4% per 100 AP). Something where Riot could say "it's better then it was" while functionally not doing anything to it (compared to 10.1)
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only zhule

Nível 111 (NA)
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