nGio (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=puśsý,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JRN5dELl,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-09-18T01:29:04.933+0000) > > Maybe ten seconds is too generous . . . Closer to 3 seconds for a team fight. 3.1 seconds if there is a "tank" to walk over.
> [{quoted}](name=nGio,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JRN5dELl,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2019-09-18T19:57:21.761+0000) > > Closer to 3 seconds for a team fight. 3.1 seconds if there is a "tank" to walk over. lmao
: well swain always functioned as a support since his rework now he functions as an adc replacement as well because he got wave clear he is still only viable with a setup as his own setup is unreliable also it makes or breaks it " FOR YOU " stop feeling so important that your opinion applies to the majority you can play champions with many different builds and setups swain currently functions in 4 roles and has the following runes viable: conq, fleet, ele, dh, phase rush, grasp, aftershock, glacial every rune setup changes the items you should prioritize if thats not enough diversity i don't think you will ever be happy
> [{quoted}](name=Ornndyr2k19,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JRN5dELl,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2019-09-18T13:43:03.023+0000) > > well swain always functioned as a support since his rework > now he functions as an adc replacement as well because he got wave clear > > he is still only viable with a setup as his own setup is unreliable > > also > it makes or breaks it " FOR YOU " > stop feeling so important that your opinion applies to the majority > > you can play champions with many different builds and setups > swain currently functions in 4 roles and has the following runes viable: > conq, fleet, ele, dh, phase rush, grasp, aftershock, glacial > > every rune setup changes the items you should prioritize > > if thats not enough diversity i don't think you will ever be happy So swain having diversity means every champion has diversity ... Flawless logic.
: I swear. Next step is riot is going to try turning league into a mobile game.
> [{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JRN5dELl,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-09-18T02:04:46.619+0000) > > I swear. Next step is riot is going to try turning league into a mobile game. I'm expecting the worst.
Nea104 (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=puśsý,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JRN5dELl,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-09-18T00:33:36.771+0000) > > It upsets me that this game has so much potential but it's ruined by its piss poor state. It surely used to have. Then Season 8 came. And then Season 9. This company has already proved that they won't fix anything. They want that their own game keeps sinking into this sludge, for whatever reason. > ... The ten-second team fights. Ten? :D
> [{quoted}](name=Nea104,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JRN5dELl,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-09-18T01:27:29.385+0000) > > It surely used to have. Then Season 8 came. And then Season 9. > This company has already proved that they won't fix anything. They want that their own game keeps sinking into this sludge, for whatever reason. > > Ten? :D Maybe ten seconds is too generous . . .
Comentários de Rioters
: I feel like the main concern with giving assassins variety in their builds is that non-assassins can also build and abuse their items, which causes the non-assassin champions to get nerfed for months of outrage until the items themselves get nerfed and become useless and then we're back to the basic build. For example when Duskblade first came out and lethality was introduced **_everybody_** used it and could do well, {{champion:202}}{{champion:21}}{{champion:110}} and even some ap champs if i recall correctly{{champion:105}}. This still stands though and is still a problem, albeit less of one. Miss Fortune can still do very well running full lethality up until late game and some Jhin players still take Ghostblade first/second item whenever double Infinity Edge falls out of meta. The same threat goes for AP champs as well, AP fighters/Juggernauts {{champion:82}}{{champion:517}} want healthier items but assassins {{champion:245}}{{champion:105}} and mages {{champion:127}}{{champion:99}} could abuse them (and you thought aftershock Lissandra was BS before). There were even some ideations for some AP juggernaut items but they were never carried out.
> [{quoted}](name=The DrBonjigollo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=38UQEzMa,comment-id=001f,timestamp=2019-09-16T22:26:48.469+0000) > > I feel like the main concern with giving assassins variety in their builds is that non-assassins can also build and abuse their items, which causes the non-assassin champions to get nerfed for months of outrage until the items themselves get nerfed and become useless and then we're back to the basic build. > > For example when Duskblade first came out and lethality was introduced **_everybody_** used it and could do well, {{champion:202}}{{champion:21}}{{champion:110}} and even some ap champs if i recall correctly{{champion:105}}. This still stands though and is still a problem, albeit less of one. Miss Fortune can still do very well running full lethality up until late game and some Jhin players still take Ghostblade first/second item whenever double Infinity Edge falls out of meta. > > The same threat goes for AP champs as well, AP fighters/Juggernauts {{champion:82}}{{champion:517}} want healthier items but assassins {{champion:245}}{{champion:105}} and mages {{champion:127}}{{champion:99}} could abuse them (and you thought aftershock Lissandra was BS before). There were even some ideations for some AP juggernaut items but they were never carried out. Then nerf the assassin items for ranged champions. If lux and lissandra begin abusing melee ap items, make the items melee only. If ekko/fizz begin to abuse the items, then nerf those 2 or someone gate the item behind an hp threshold or something.
: past duskblade i can litterally build any item in the game and so my build more or less change everygame
> [{quoted}](name=Master2139,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=38UQEzMa,comment-id=001b,timestamp=2019-09-16T16:38:58.016+0000) > > past duskblade i can litterally build any item in the game and so my build more or less change everygame You could go crit soraka, that doesn't mean its practical.
: Darius main here, I have muscle memory on the whole {{item:3078}} {{item:3111}} / {{item:3047}} {{item:3053}} {{item:3742}} {{item:3065}} Your 5th and 6th items are situational and you get to choose between mercs and tabi thats it, you might go visage before deadmans in some cases but not always. If you go cleaver into a team that isnt 4 or more melee your trolling, if you dont go steraks you become irrelevant etc
> [{quoted}](name=AlterMordred,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=38UQEzMa,comment-id=0017,timestamp=2019-09-16T12:17:45.642+0000) > > Darius main here, I have muscle memory on the whole {{item:3078}} {{item:3111}} / {{item:3047}} {{item:3053}} {{item:3742}} {{item:3065}} > > Your 5th and 6th items are situational and you get to choose between mercs and tabi thats it, you might go visage before deadmans in some cases but not always. If you go cleaver into a team that isnt 4 or more melee your trolling, if you dont go steraks you become irrelevant etc Juggernauts build the same thing pretty much ever game.
KazKaz (OCE)
: I got downvoted by people who think that I'm even partially incorrect, and like to believe that only 2 builds are viable for Kai'sa, despite one tricks coming into the mix and proving everyone wrong.
> [{quoted}](name=KazKaz,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=38UQEzMa,comment-id=00010000000100010000,timestamp=2019-09-16T12:55:30.134+0000) > > I got downvoted by people who think that I'm even partially incorrect, and like to believe that only 2 builds are viable for Kai'sa, despite one tricks coming into the mix and proving everyone wrong. Kai'sa's diversity is what makes so strong. She is able to adapt to different situations. She can build both zhonyas and ga.
KazKaz (OCE)
: Kai'sa can go AD, crit, AP and hybrid. That's worse than a "decent amount of item diversity". Oh, and she's more than "a bit overpowered right now", she's an abomination who evades the nerf hammer only due to her receiving a plethora of skins each and every 2 patches.
> [{quoted}](name=KazKaz,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=38UQEzMa,comment-id=000100000001,timestamp=2019-09-16T04:28:55.253+0000) > > Kai'sa can go AD, crit, AP and hybrid. That's worse than a "decent amount of item diversity". > > Oh, and she's more than "a bit overpowered right now", she's an abomination who evades the nerf hammer only due to her receiving a plethora of skins each and every 2 patches. idk why you are being downvoted, kaisa has the highest item diversity.
: Why damage is so high now
cdr creep, mr items suck, vanye, kaisa, brand . . .
Bârd (NA)
: Kai'sa is definitely a bit overpowered right now, but she definitely doesn't have "Too much diversity". The vast majority of the roster has an unacceptable level of item diversity. Kai'sa has a decent amount of item diversity, and honestly the target level of build diversity for practically every champion should be slightly above Kai'sa.
> [{quoted}](name=Bârd,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=38UQEzMa,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-09-15T21:50:47.943+0000) > > Kai'sa is definitely a bit overpowered right now, but she definitely doesn't have "Too much diversity". > > The vast majority of the roster has an unacceptable level of item diversity. > > Kai'sa has a decent amount of item diversity, and honestly the target level of build diversity for practically every champion should be slightly above Kai'sa. Compared to any other adc and champion, kai'sa's item pool is extremely diverse. However, I agree that the target item diversity should be above that of kai'sa's.
: Some champions have multiple build paths enabled by their kit, but people also complain about said champs because when they get out of check having multiple different ways they can build can be even more frustrating because it makes champions feel like good picks into even more game situations than normal. Examples (I'll try to list them in relatively decreasing popularity): {{champion:103}} Full AP / Glacial / AD {{champion:12}} Utility Tank / Full AP {{champion:32}} Tank / AP {{champion:22}} AD (with multiple meta AD builds) / Full AP R Spam {{champion:53}} Utility Tank / Full AP / Full AD {{champion:31}} Tank / Full AP / Glacial {{champion:131}} Burst Glass-Cannon Assassin / Tanky AP Bruiser {{champion:81}} Full AD / Full AP (not to mention single handedly breaking tear itemization) {{champion:3}} Tank / AP {{champion:79}} Tank / AP {{champion:40}} Shield Utility / Full AP {{champion:59}} Full AD / Full Tank / AP "Support" {{champion:145}} Basically the current definition of abusing hybrid scaling and build paths {{champion:43}} Shield-Bot / Full AP / Tank (not to mention she is partially responsible for breaking Spellthief's gold generation passive) {{champion:141}} Bruiser / Lethality-Assassin (By Design of Blue vs Red Kayn) {{champion:85}} AP Kennen / AD Kennen {{champion:96}} AD Kog'Maw / AP Kog'Maw {{champion:54}} Full Tank / Full AP {{champion:57}} Full Tank / Full AP (frequently goes somewhere in the middle though cause he's in an awful spot atm) {{champion:21}} Crit / Lethality / Full AP {{champion:75}} Tank / Full AP / Full AD {{champion:111}} Tank / Full AP {{champion:518}} Full AP / Glacial / On-Hit {{champion:80}} Lethality / Crit / AP {{champion:555}} Lethality / Tank {{champion:246}} Lethality / Bruiser {{champion:133}} Lethality / Crit {{champion:497}} Utility-Tank / AP {{champion:35}} AP / Lethality {{champion:98}} Full Tank / Bruiser {{champion:102}} Full Tank / Full AP / Full AD {{champion:14}} Full Tank / Lethality {{champion:72}} Tank / Brusier {{champion:37}} Shield Utility / Full AP {{champion:16}} Shield Utility / Full AP {{champion:517}} Full AP / AP Bruiser {{champion:223}} Utility-Tank / Bruiser {{champion:44}} Utility-Tank / AD {{champion:412}} Utility-Tank / Crit (with oneshot and DPS alternatives) / AP {{champion:4}} Full AP / Full AD {{champion:110}} Full AD / Full Lethality {{champion:45}} Full AP / Glacial / Tank (via Passive Scaling for all necessary AP) {{champion:161}} Full AP / Glacial {{champion:112}} Full AP / Tank {{champion:19}} AD / Tank / AP {{champion:62}} Lethality / Brusier {{champion:101}} Full AP / Glacial {{champion:154}} Tank / AP And I'm sure there's some I missed (for example, I didn't count starting with a support item different than starting with doran's ring or corrupting pot) Now I know **that's only 48 Champions out of the 145 currently in the game, but that's still a third of all champions** where I could quickly come up with multiple significantly different builds for them. I agree some champions going for the same core items every game is dull (for example nearly every AP threat rushes Lost Chapter instead of Morellonomicon like they used to before the work in Season 8) but at least there's a substantial subsection of champions that can adapt their build and runes to multiple game situations, even if they'll likely be following the "core items" mentality once they've decided what playstyle they're going to go for that game (for example AP Malphite is almost certainly going to rush Luden's Echo or Runic Echos every time, despite that build differing from his normal Full Tank build).
> [{quoted}](name=The23rdGamer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=38UQEzMa,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2019-09-15T19:41:29.723+0000) > > Some champions have multiple build paths enabled by their kit, but people also complain about said champs because when they get out of check having multiple different ways they can build can be even more frustrating because it makes champions feel like good picks into even more game situations than normal. > > Examples (I'll try to list them in relatively decreasing popularity): > {{champion:103}} Full AP / Glacial / AD > {{champion:12}} Utility Tank / Full AP > {{champion:32}} Tank / AP > {{champion:22}} AD (with multiple meta AD builds) / Full AP R Spam > {{champion:53}} Utility Tank / Full AP / Full AD > {{champion:31}} Tank / Full AP / Glacial > {{champion:131}} Burst Glass-Cannon Assassin / Tanky AP Bruiser > {{champion:81}} Full AD / Full AP (not to mention single handedly breaking tear itemization) > {{champion:3}} Tank / AP > {{champion:79}} Tank / AP > {{champion:40}} Shield Utility / Full AP > {{champion:59}} Full AD / Full Tank / AP "Support" > {{champion:145}} Basically the current definition of abusing hybrid scaling and build paths > {{champion:43}} Shield-Bot / Full AP / Tank (not to mention she is partially responsible for breaking Spellthief's gold generation passive) > {{champion:141}} Bruiser / Lethality-Assassin (By Design of Blue vs Red Kayn) > {{champion:85}} AP Kennen / AD Kennen > {{champion:96}} AD Kog'Maw / AP Kog'Maw > {{champion:54}} Full Tank / Full AP > {{champion:57}} Full Tank / Full AP (frequently goes somewhere in the middle though cause he's in an awful spot atm) > {{champion:21}} Crit / Lethality / Full AP > {{champion:75}} Tank / Full AP / Full AD > {{champion:111}} Tank / Full AP > {{champion:518}} Full AP / Glacial / On-Hit > {{champion:80}} Lethality / Crit / AP > {{champion:555}} Lethality / Tank > {{champion:246}} Lethality / Bruiser > {{champion:133}} Lethality / Crit > {{champion:497}} Utility-Tank / AP > {{champion:35}} AP / Lethality > {{champion:98}} Full Tank / Bruiser > {{champion:102}} Full Tank / Full AP / Full AD > {{champion:14}} Full Tank / Lethality > {{champion:72}} Tank / Brusier > {{champion:37}} Shield Utility / Full AP > {{champion:16}} Shield Utility / Full AP > {{champion:517}} Full AP / AP Bruiser > {{champion:223}} Utility-Tank / Bruiser > {{champion:44}} Utility-Tank / AD > {{champion:412}} Utility-Tank / Crit (with oneshot and DPS alternatives) / AP > {{champion:4}} Full AP / Full AD > {{champion:110}} Full AD / Full Lethality > {{champion:45}} Full AP / Glacial / Tank (via Passive Scaling for all necessary AP) > {{champion:161}} Full AP / Glacial > {{champion:112}} Full AP / Tank > {{champion:19}} AD / Tank / AP > {{champion:62}} Lethality / Brusier > {{champion:101}} Full AP / Glacial > {{champion:154}} Tank / AP > > And I'm sure there's some I missed (for example, I didn't count starting with a support item different than starting with doran's ring or corrupting pot) > > Now I know **that's only 48 Champions out of the 145 currently in the game, but that's still a third of all champions** where I could quickly come up with multiple significantly different builds for them. > > I agree some champions going for the same core items every game is dull (for example nearly every AP threat rushes Lost Chapter instead of Morellonomicon like they used to before the work in Season 8) but at least there's a substantial subsection of champions that can adapt their build and runes to multiple game situations, even if they'll likely be following the "core items" mentality once they've decided what playstyle they're going to go for that game (for example AP Malphite is almost certainly going to rush Luden's Echo or Runic Echos every time, despite that build differing from his normal Full Tank build). How often do you see the examples you've given?
: Assassins have limited items and mages have good items that over shadow over others. Bruisers are different in builds but jax builds close to the same every game and irelia builds different then jax but builds similar items every game. I want more items that do less general we need more stuff like {{item:3152}} and nerfs to general items.
> [{quoted}](name=boricCentaur1,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=38UQEzMa,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-09-15T17:20:28.246+0000) > > Assassins have limited items and mages have good items that over shadow over others. > > Bruisers are different in builds but jax builds close to the same every game and irelia builds different then jax but builds similar items every game. > > I want more items that do less general we need more stuff like {{item:3152}} and nerfs to general items. I agree, protobelt is one of the more interesting items.
mack9112 (NA)
: Idk my reksai zac and velkoz have 3 different build paths and rune paths they can take depending on the situation
> [{quoted}](name=mack9112,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=38UQEzMa,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-09-15T17:53:04.161+0000) > > Idk my reksai zac and velkoz have 3 different build paths and rune paths they can take depending on the situation That more of 'what is best for this situation'. For example, f their team is all AP, you shouldn't go something like deadman's plate (I'm spitballing). You not building deadman's plate against an ap team isn't an example of diversifying your build, it's just building what is best.
Comentários de Rioters
Comentários de Rioters
: Please no we do NOT need a tank meta again where a tank can solo kill carries and if you was the more OP tank just out last other tanks. The amount of CC most tanks have is enough. It would also drag games out to be longer and more unfun and not interesting. Watching 2 tanks fight is like watching a wet noodle fight it's boring AF. If the tank meta came back it would ruin all of league no champion would be viable except tanks. No mages, no assassins, no enchanter supports, no adc except for maybe vayne and kog, and bruisers would even be effected. You would legit see nothing buy ChoGath Alistar Maokai Rammus Malphite Darius Nasus Nautilus etc etc and among them trundle would be GOD teir please no.
> [{quoted}](name=Ninja Anubis,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=f3AzspMA,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2019-09-11T02:02:53.560+0000) > > Please no we do NOT need a tank meta again where a tank can solo kill carries and if you was the more OP tank just out last other tanks. The amount of CC most tanks have is enough. It would also drag games out to be longer and more unfun and not interesting. Watching 2 tanks fight is like watching a wet noodle fight it's boring AF. If the tank meta came back it would ruin all of league no champion would be viable except tanks. No mages, no assassins, no enchanter supports, no adc except for maybe vayne and kog, and bruisers would even be effected. You would legit see nothing buy ChoGath Alistar Maokai Rammus Malphite Darius Nasus Nautilus etc etc and among them trundle would be GOD teir please no. I'm not asking for a tank meta
Torkl (EUW)
: {{item:3190}} {{item:3001}} {{item:3387}} {{item:3193}} {{item:3109}} {{item:3143}} {{item:3800}} So many tankitems have additional effects + all the raw stats they need, i think the biggest problem is that tanks earn less gold, since they need alot of help in lane and in late/mid they only run around helping the team.
> [{quoted}](name=Torkl,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=f3AzspMA,comment-id=0017,timestamp=2019-09-11T13:11:20.278+0000) > > {{item:3190}} {{item:3001}} {{item:3387}} {{item:3193}} {{item:3109}} {{item:3143}} {{item:3800}} > So many tankitems have additional effects + all the raw stats they need, i think the biggest problem is that tanks earn less gold, since they need alot of help in lane and in late/mid they only run around helping the team. tank's dont even last in the late game when they are already full built.
: If tanks get this huge item, then im 100% sure other classes will abuse it.
> [{quoted}](name=ÈvilMorty,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=f3AzspMA,comment-id=001c,timestamp=2019-09-11T17:40:41.584+0000) > > If tanks get this huge item, then im 100% sure other classes will abuse it. not if you gate it behind a high gold cost / melee only etc..
: Yes please. ---- **What is the difficulty with giving tanks such an item?** There is a couple, from different perspectives: - Stonewalling of lanes: If tanks get too much power against their laning opponent, the lane degenerates. Proactivity of both sides of the matchup gets stifled, as the opponent cannot do much against the tank anymore and the tank can act more passively, relying on their teamfight power to carry the day. An example for this situation would be if Warmog's Armor did not have its HP threshould restriction. If Warmog's Heart worked in lane, the tank would always have full HP, rendering interaction pointless. - Abuse by non-tanks: I think most of the people here remember tank Fizz and tank Ekko in S5 or, before those, tank Renekton and the Renekton bar (there's no counter!) in S4. **Or, to put it differently, what does a tank Power Item need to have to go around the difficulties?** - Stat Binding to intended tank stats: Some time ago, Riot seperated tanky guys between being focused on resistances (true tanks) and being focused more on health (other tanky guys, i.e. Juggernauts). That is why Juggernaut items are generally giving a lot of HP with their AD, but not so much resistances. This would keep the tank item out of the hands of non-tanks - Incentives for Proactiveness: To avoid the stonewalling problem described above. - No offensive effect: This clashes with the previous point, but it is still important to prevent tanks from having too many offensive stats - otherwise, we'd be back at the "unkillable tanks oneshotting me" problem that led to tanks getting nerfs in the past. - General power increase: The item needs to make tanks more, you know, tanks. It needs to give them more tankiness. - Non-situational nature: The goal is to have an item that tanks can buy without having to pay too much attention to the game's general situation. - Synergy: The item needs to synergize both with tanks' kits and with further purchases.
> [{quoted}](name=ProfDrDeath,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=f3AzspMA,comment-id=0010,timestamp=2019-09-11T06:28:48.737+0000) > > Yes please. > > ---- > > **What is the difficulty with giving tanks such an item?** > > There is a couple, from different perspectives: > > - Stonewalling of lanes: If tanks get too much power against their laning opponent, the lane degenerates. Proactivity of both sides of the matchup gets stifled, as the opponent cannot do much against the tank anymore and the tank can act more passively, relying on their teamfight power to carry the day. > An example for this situation would be if Warmog's Armor did not have its HP threshould restriction. If Warmog's Heart worked in lane, the tank would always have full HP, rendering interaction pointless. > - Abuse by non-tanks: I think most of the people here remember tank Fizz and tank Ekko in S5 or, before those, tank Renekton and the Renekton bar (there's no counter!) in S4. > > **Or, to put it differently, what does a tank Power Item need to have to go around the difficulties?** > > - Stat Binding to intended tank stats: Some time ago, Riot seperated tanky guys between being focused on resistances (true tanks) and being focused more on health (other tanky guys, i.e. Juggernauts). That is why Juggernaut items are generally giving a lot of HP with their AD, but not so much resistances. This would keep the tank item out of the hands of non-tanks > - Incentives for Proactiveness: To avoid the stonewalling problem described above. > - No offensive effect: This clashes with the previous point, but it is still important to prevent tanks from having too many offensive stats - otherwise, we'd be back at the "unkillable tanks oneshotting me" problem that led to tanks getting nerfs in the past. > - General power increase: The item needs to make tanks more, you know, tanks. It needs to give them more tankiness. > - Non-situational nature: The goal is to have an item that tanks can buy without having to pay too much attention to the game's general situation. > - Synergy: The item needs to synergize both with tanks' kits and with further purchases. Well, you could somehow gate the item behind a high gold cost (so tanks need bamis + a lot of gold), bad build path, and maybe add some threshold kinda like warmogs passsive to prevent Stonewalling
Keiaga (NA)
: >Frozen heart is a crap item which no one builds and basically just reads 'Mage now 1 shots me' ...yes, items with the sole purpose of adding armor is going to lack MR. Fortunately, tier 1 boots + 2 defensive items cost about 5k, which you should be able to achieve before the laning phase ends and mages start coming online with damage. Unfortunately for tanks, unlike full offensive assassins/mages/ADCs, you have to build reactively, so of course you have to look at "situational" items. Fortunately for tanks, there's usually only one type of damage that you really have to worry about, so it's easy to build accordingly. >Spirit visage and adaptive are situationally good Actually if your tank has any sort of self healing, or if the support is a healer, Spirit visage is a great MR item 100% of the time. But like I said, a tank has to build according to what's needed in each game and not rely on a single static build which most people do
> [{quoted}](name=Keiaga,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=f3AzspMA,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-09-11T00:20:13.205+0000) > > ...yes, items with the sole purpose of adding armor is going to lack MR. Fortunately, tier 1 boots + 2 defensive items cost about 5k, which you should be able to achieve before the laning phase ends and mages start coming online with damage. > > Unfortunately for tanks, unlike full offensive assassins/mages/ADCs, you have to build reactively, so of course you have to look at "situational" items. > > Fortunately for tanks, there's usually only one type of damage that you really have to worry about, so it's easy to build accordingly. > > Actually if your tank has any sort of self healing, or if the support is a healer, Spirit visage is a great MR item 100% of the time. But like I said, a tank has to build according to what's needed in each game and not rely on a single static build which most people do OFC spirit visage is gonna be a great item if your team has healing. This also applies to juggernauts. Unfortunately, most mages build {{item:3165}} by default to one shot any squishies. So your healing is only 78% effective, instead of 130%. This massively reduces your effective HP.
: I think that tank items are a lot more interesting than most other items in the game due to a ton of special abilities they have, that being said tanks are kinda lacking the big stat sticks other roles (except supports because who cares) have. There is also so many item counters to tanks that in late game you are kinda lucky if you live 8 seconds in a team fight because the enemy team has so much damage, armor pen, grievous wounds, magic pen, etc. That just negates your stuff. Small scale fights feel awesome but in team fights it's just like, why am I even here?
> [{quoted}](name=God Claus,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=f3AzspMA,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2019-09-11T00:42:24.290+0000) > > I think that tank items are a lot more interesting than most other items in the game due to a ton of special abilities they have, that being said tanks are kinda lacking the big stat sticks other roles (except supports because who cares) have. > There is also so many item counters to tanks that in late game you are kinda lucky if you live 8 seconds in a team fight because the enemy team has so much damage, armor pen, grievous wounds, magic pen, etc. That just negates your stuff. Small scale fights feel awesome but in team fights it's just like, why am I even here? I agree - in small skirmishes tanks actually feel tanky (unless vs like vayne/yi/kaisa etc...). But when you have 5 people throwing everything at you - you just don't last.
Keiaga (NA)
: You point to sunfire cape but that's a pretty mediocre tank item and is mostly built to help push. If you actually wanted a good tank item you'd be starting with {{item:3110}} for armor or {{item:3065}} /{{item:3194}} to survive. As a tank your goal is to provide CC and last as long as possible. If you're buying a worse item for survivability just for the weak aoe passive, then you're shooting yourself in the foot
> [{quoted}](name=Keiaga,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=f3AzspMA,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-09-10T23:54:12.694+0000) > > You point to sunfire cape but that's a pretty mediocre tank item and is mostly built to help push. If you actually wanted a good tank item you'd be starting with {{item:3110}} for armor or {{item:3065}} /{{item:3194}} to survive. As a tank your goal is to provide CC and last as long as possible. If you're buying a worse item for survivability just for the weak aoe passive, then you're shooting yourself in the foot Sunfire is only good for early game and for clearing minions (especially super) minions. Frozen heart is a crap item which no one builds and basically just reads 'Mage now 1 shots me'. Spirit visage and adaptive are situationally good.
: Plating should be nerfed, so that tanks don't get snowballed on in lane, maybe even give tank items some adaptive force (just a tiny amount). This way defensive options can create an effect of loss prevention, instead of an effect of "forfeiting all my plates to the enemy snowballing bruiser who can just walk up and take plates while I play the drums on his ass because I do no damage"
> [{quoted}](name=BennieBoi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=f3AzspMA,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-09-10T23:30:28.309+0000) > > Plating should be nerfed, so that tanks don't get snowballed on in lane, maybe even give tank items some adaptive force (just a tiny amount). > > This way defensive options can create an effect of loss prevention, instead of an effect of "forfeiting all my plates to the enemy snowballing bruiser who can just walk up and take plates while I play the drums on his ass because I do no damage" I agree plating should be nerfed, but not because of tanks but because of snowball. I believe tanks should have weaker laning phases in exchange for a strong mid-late game team fight.
Ralanr (NA)
: A big strength to tanks is that they don't have a powerspike item that need to rush in lane. Do you know how fucking awful it feels when you're behind on someone like Darius, and you're still stuck building your core while your laner has two items on you? Tanks don't need to get fucked harder.
> [{quoted}](name=Ralanr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=f3AzspMA,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-09-10T23:21:33.288+0000) > > A big strength to tanks is that they don't have a powerspike item that need to rush in lane. Do you know how fucking awful it feels when you're behind on someone like Darius, and you're still stuck building your core while your laner has two items on you? > > Tanks don't need to get fucked harder. Why would tanks get fucked harder if they spent 3k+ gold on a non-rush item that actually made them tanky? Spend more gold for a better item, be rewarded.
Keiaga (NA)
: Yes, exaggerations and personal anecdotes are pretty convincing.
> [{quoted}](name=Keiaga,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=f3AzspMA,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-09-10T23:21:10.669+0000) > > Yes, exaggerations and personal anecdotes are pretty convincing. Are tanks tankier than other champions? Undoubtely, no one is denying that. Is it okay for tanks to die late game in 5 seconds? Probably not. Currently tanks (in the toplane) rely on cheap items {{item:3068}} with easy build paths.
: No. They need there kits buffed that is it. Tank items are fine well maybe we need more mr items but the rest are fine. Lot of jgs and top laners build them.
> [{quoted}](name=boricCentaur1,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=f3AzspMA,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-09-10T22:42:44.745+0000) > > No. They need there kits buffed that is it. Tank items are fine well maybe we need more mr items but the rest are fine. Lot of jgs and top laners build them. I don't think their kits need buffs. Tank's exist to CC, and every tank (and almost every champ, lol) has an ability to do so.
Comentários de Rioters
Nithke (EUW)
: I'm more talking about the nowadays OW, which is a dead game for a reason. LoL is the most toxic game, i'm saying it again, it's not subjective, the amount of toxicity in this game is gigantic and the only game that could rivalize is fortnite. Also i believe that OW and CSGO are games that requires a voice chat, in league pings can be more than enough for the basics and written chat as annoying as it can be has it's own uses. You also say "people who want to use VC and are willing to accept "risks" will use it." To which i partially agree, yes if you use it you've got te ready to have some shit talk and dumbasses, however i still want a good quality team chat and i don't expect to get this from League. I'd be surprised if there's even one of two people using it per game on average
> [{quoted}](name=Nithke,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3aRiuF5v,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2019-09-10T18:16:43.336+0000) > > I'm more talking about the nowadays OW, which is a dead game for a reason. > LoL is the most toxic game, i'm saying it again, it's not subjective, the amount of toxicity in this game is gigantic and the only game that could rivalize is fortnite. > Also i believe that OW and CSGO are games that requires a voice chat, in league pings can be more than enough for the basics and written chat as annoying as it can be has it's own uses. > > You also say "people who want to use VC and are willing to accept "risks" will use it." > To which i partially agree, yes if you use it you've got te ready to have some shit talk and dumbasses, however i still want a good quality team chat and i don't expect to get this from League. I'd be surprised if there's even one of two people using it per game on average I feel like people are severely overestimating how toxic people will be in a league voice chat. I thought voice chats would be really toxic in FPS games, but it turns out they were far less toxic than chats. Make it an optional thing, see it how it turns out. Even if one out of ten games has a game where an entire team is using voice chat for what it is intended for, that is good.
blue38k (NA)
: Nerf Illaoi
Illaoi is proof riot doesn't play test their champions. It doesn't matter if she's 'balanced' she is so unfun to fight. And someone at riot had the great idea of removing counterplay from her the last time she was updated.
: {{champion:122}} {{item:3111}} {{item:3211}} now she does 0 damage to you GG
> [{quoted}](name=Azir ate my ASS,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7odXPPoU,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-09-09T11:56:39.692+0000) > > {{champion:122}} {{item:3111}} {{item:3211}} now she does 0 damage to you GG Yes you get 2300 gold for free. And it definitely won't hurt you when you delay your core items.
Nithke (EUW)
: I have three problems with the idea : * **People stick to their habits**, I don't think that many people will use it, and it might end up like OW where there's just one squeaker speaking or playing music to annoy people. * **LoL is probably the most toxic game in the world**, that means that a lot of dumbasses will use the system to just flame people instead of communicating, especially because it will be a very good way to avoid getting banned from shit talking in chat so you can freely talk madshit about anyone. And saying "You could disable it" is not a solution, it's like saying "just /mute all". I want to be able to use what the game offers without having to disable anything because some moron is pissing me off. * ** Teamates are dumbasses**, If i use vocal chat to try and win and some guys are being r%%%%%s, inting trolling or feeding or whatever gets you angry in league, I won't be able to hide my hate for them, which I can do when I only type in chat. In conclusion : In any other games ? Yeah sure. In League ? No. I don't want even more bullshit toxicity in the game just so something like 2% of the playerbase can communicate more. (And most likely shit talk themselves at the first mistake one makes)
> [{quoted}](name=Nithke,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3aRiuF5v,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2019-09-08T20:39:34.133+0000) > > I have three problems with the idea : > > * **People stick to their habits**, I don't think that many people will use it, and it might end up like OW where there's just one squeaker speaking or playing music to annoy people. > > > > * **LoL is probably the most toxic game in the world**, that means that a lot of dumbasses will use the system to just flame people instead of communicating, especially because it will be a very good way to avoid getting banned from shit talking in chat so you can freely talk madshit about anyone. > And saying "You could disable it" is not a solution, it's like saying "just /mute all". I want to be able to use what the game offers without having to disable anything because some moron is pissing me off. > > > * ** Teamates are dumbasses**, If i use vocal chat to try and win and some guys are being r%%%%%s, inting trolling or feeding or whatever gets you angry in league, I won't be able to hide my hate for them, which I can do when I only type in chat. > > In conclusion : In any other games ? Yeah sure. In League ? No. > > I don't want even more bullshit toxicity in the game just so something like 2% of the playerbase can communicate more. (And most likely shit talk themselves at the first mistake one makes) When I played competitive OW in season 3-10 I rarely experienced players using their mikes to annoy people. It looks like people are selectively that 1 time they had a heated argument in a VC, which is easily evaded with a mute. From my experience in OW, people say more negative thing in chat than in VC. "Lol is the most toxic game ..." That is subjective. Many other games with 'toxic' player bases such as counterstrike and overwatch have VC's that serves its purpose. People who want to use VC and are willing to accept "risks" will use it. People who don't, won't. The few games of league that I have had where I was in voice comms with non-premades were the best.
Xphineas (NA)
: Thats also not a valid argument. I have honor level 4, and im toxic here and there (not in the "hey go kill yourself" kinda way, but more so "wtf are you doing? Get your head back in the game"), so even still, that argument isnt valid
> [{quoted}](name=Xphineas,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3aRiuF5v,comment-id=000100010000,timestamp=2019-09-08T17:58:18.373+0000) > > Thats also not a valid argument. I have honor level 4, and im toxic here and there (not in the "hey go kill yourself" kinda way, but more so "wtf are you doing? Get your head back in the game"), so even still, that argument isnt valid I don't think saying get your head back in the game is toxic.
Kovorix (EUW)
: The thing is in a very hypothetical scenario: Someone is realy bullying you and telling you to kill yourself and you will actually commit suicide of it riot is fucked beyond help for it as they did nothing to prevent it.
> [{quoted}](name=Kovorix,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3aRiuF5v,comment-id=000100000001,timestamp=2019-09-08T17:55:25.604+0000) > > The thing is in a very hypothetical scenario: Someone is realy bullying you and telling you to kill yourself and you will actually commit suicide of it riot is fucked beyond help for it as they did nothing to prevent it. Mute/leave button exists for a reason. If you can't handle someone making fun of you online, you can just leave vc.
: tbh their main argument of "it would be too toxic" doesnt even hold up anymore; they directly contradicted their own ideology once they added the ability to turn off team chat, and to have it opt-in instead. could they have simply done the same for voice chat? there is absolutely no reason at this point for them to not, other then just cause.
People here have some sort of mental blockage and can't understand that VC would be optional.
Xphineas (NA)
: Riot really has no way to monitor VC, so if someone, for example, told you to kill yourself, they would get away scott free.
You can always gate VC behind an honour level. People who have reached (let's say) an honour level of 3-5 are far less likely to say something like that than a person who has just had his honour level reset to 1. Not to mention people could always report them.
SEKAI (OCE)
: Can't wait to be called slurs and names for missing my CS, to have broken mic screeches tear through my eardrums, people shouting and raging in both text and voice at the same time, annoying and invasive background noises x5, most people sounding like they're half-dead and in the middle of the decomposition process, and people going haywire the instant a feminine voice appear in the group chat. Oh boy, am I ready! ....... > People are less toxic in VC than in chat. Behind that toxic, flamer, is a 9 yo squeaker who doesn't want to embarrass himself. Xbox Live disagrees.
In my experience of voice chats I have not experienced any of what you have described. Maybe the culture from PC gaming and xbox gaming is different. Since you don't seem fond of VC, why not just disable it?
Comentários de Rioters
Comentários de Rioters
Ahris (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Bonten,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sWKqwvrG,comment-id=000200030000,timestamp=2019-09-05T02:38:43.816+0000) > > i think its because its frustrating to play against spear. even if its just really only core on some champions, everyone seems to think mages are bad but they have so much damage in pen it feels like you might as well build more damage to counter mages damage. the sheer shred mages have through runes and pen items is insane Riot nerfed mages lategame and made their early stronger. That is the reason why magic pen items are the way they are.
Mages are bad late game? {{item:3089}} {{item:3135}} {{item:3157}} + Gathering storm.
: btw the champion was designed to be a mid laner carry from release? dont take my word for it watch brand champion spotlight , Phreak focuses on him dealing damage and first clip of him is on mid lane. every other one doesnt seem to indicate that he is supporting
well he is the problem is brand lacks wave clear and is simply outclassed by other midlaners. He is more played in the support role because . He is against AD carries who have low base movement speed and who have a harder time dodging skillshots . There are 2 people, which is good for brand since he does aoe damage . He can function off of support gold due to high base damage (passive)
Bonten (NA)
: i think its because its frustrating to play against spear. even if its just really only core on some champions, everyone seems to think mages are bad but they have so much damage in pen it feels like you might as well build more damage to counter mages damage. the sheer shred mages have through runes and pen items is insane
support mages like brand can one shot your ad carry and do half of your HP as a bruiser while on support gold.
: its honestly really easy: Make aftershock reduce damage taken by 50% maybe 60% late game, for 4 seconds. However, make it not pop to deal damage, and make it reduce all damage done by 30%. This is literally the fucking solution. Tanks become tanks, + tanks dont one shot things anymore. As for Zullar, hes going the completely wrong way because he aint suggesting anyways they can fix that. Dont just say "hehe fix ____ creep" without any back up.
In general, there is a consensus that damage needs to be nerfed, but not everyone agrees with what needs to be changed. Some people think its bad MR itemization, others think its spear or shojin.
Comentários de Rioters

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