Rewt (NA)
: First off Pro play is very different than Ladder. Easy example. Rek Sai. She released with a .8 AD scaling Q. It was pretty nuts. They nerfed it repeatedly. By .5AD she was no longer played in ladder. She was played in Pro play even after the Q was nerfed down to a .1 AD scaling. Proplay is not a good indicator of champion strength. Sejuani is mediocre in Ladder. She was pick ban in NALCS in S9. Now onto trynd. Trynd is a fairly one-dimensional playstyle. This is why isn't picked as often. If you get ahead. you can basically single-handedly win the game. If you get behind...... you are a melee right click. Not a good champ to play from behind. He is the embodiment of Feast or Famine. If you get ahead. you cannot be stopped. If you are behind, the support might 1v1 you. Now compare this to Ranged champs. For an ADC to just invalidate the game they need to be super fed. Like 20/0/0 fed. and even then they need to be protected. They are more consistent DPS and scale very well into late game. They are a tool that only gets stronger as the game goes on. But they need to be unreasonably fed to get to the point of killing people in 2 autos. Trynd just needs a small lead to do this.
> [{quoted}](name=Rewt,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KZEz4qze,comment-id=0000000100010001,timestamp=2019-12-09T21:53:59.932+0000) > > First off Pro play is very different than Ladder. Easy example. Rek Sai. She released with a .8 AD scaling Q. It was pretty nuts. They nerfed it repeatedly. By .5AD she was no longer played in ladder. She was played in Pro play even after the Q was nerfed down to a .1 AD scaling. > > Proplay is not a good indicator of champion strength. Sejuani is mediocre in Ladder. She was pick ban in NALCS in S9. > > Now onto trynd. Trynd is a fairly one-dimensional playstyle. This is why isn't picked as often. If you get ahead. you can basically single-handedly win the game. If you get behind...... you are a melee right click. Not a good champ to play from behind. He is the embodiment of Feast or Famine. If you get ahead. you cannot be stopped. If you are behind, the support might 1v1 you. > > Now compare this to Ranged champs. For an ADC to just invalidate the game they need to be super fed. Like 20/0/0 fed. and even then they need to be protected. They are more consistent DPS and scale very well into late game. They are a tool that only gets stronger as the game goes on. But they need to be unreasonably fed to get to the point of killing people in 2 autos. Trynd just needs a small lead to do this. Trynd isnt good climbing in solo queue EITHER he has awful statistics.
: > [{quoted}](name=vgamedude,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1Alsr33j,comment-id=0008000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-12-09T20:57:56.187+0000) > > ANIMATION LOCK FOR AN ADC WITH ATTACK SPEED AUTO ATTACK? > > Are you actually kidding? Hyper mobile garbage? Most adcs have mobility or escapes now too. Holy hell adc mains are entitled. One mage gets a 2 percent pickrate in bot lane that is still 90 percent marksmen and you guys cry about how broken it is. No. Most adcs DO NOT have escapes. And please. Do tell where is an adc going to get that attack speed in the lane phase? Gonna rush that rapid fire cannon? XD But yeah. Adcs do get mad when another class comes into their lane. SEEING AS ITS THE ONLY ONE RIOT WILL LET THEM BE IN. Also funny. Weren’t too laners just crying about Vayne top. With a 0.4% pick rate? Hmmmmmmm
> [{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1Alsr33j,comment-id=00080000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-12-09T21:09:18.000+0000) > > No. Most adcs DO NOT have escapes. > > And please. Do tell where is an adc going to get that attack speed in the lane phase? Gonna rush that rapid fire cannon? XD > > But yeah. Adcs do get mad when another class comes into their lane. SEEING AS ITS THE ONLY ONE RIOT WILL LET THEM BE IN. > > Also funny. Weren’t too laners just crying about Vayne top. With a 0.4% pick rate? Hmmmmmmm {{champion:67}} {{champion:18}} {{champion:236}} {{champion:81}} {{champion:42}} {{champion:145}} {{champion:498}} also plenty of champions have no escapes not just adcs. LIKE HEIMER
: If he isnt good, then why I see him more in draft ranked picks than Aatrox? The buffs he got made him much easier to play. Just rush 40% CDR and crit and just spin to win from that point on.
> [{quoted}](name=Ragnaveil,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KZEz4qze,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-12-09T21:17:35.559+0000) > > If he isnt good, then why I see him more in draft ranked picks than Aatrox? The buffs he got made him much easier to play. Just rush 40% CDR and crit and just spin to win from that point on. Youre asking out of place of anecdotes. Go look up the numbers on him. He has a very low pickrate and not high winrate. If he truly is easy as well like you say than that means he definitely isn't good.
Rewt (NA)
: You can instapop an ADC at least. If they misposition you can blow them up. Trynd on the other hand. If he gets a lead it can start 1v5 if your team doesn't have enough CC. I played against one last night. (Our top laner is still learning the game so he is being yoinked into matches with Golds and getting slaughtered when he plays with us.) So my ADC and I are like 10/1/2 and 2/2/10 respectively. The trynd was like 8/1/0. In most cases the super fed Thresh and MF should be able to clap any champ. But in this case I simply didnt have enough CC to keep the trynd off my ADC for 7 seconds. Since you have take out all his HP, Then survive the next 5 seconds of invuln, then the inevitable 1/2 his hp heal. He killed my ADC in 2 right clicks. There is counterplay to an ADC. You can assassinate them. there is an entire class of champions dedicated to killing them. Trynd on the other hand. "Just CC him for 7 seconds 4Head"
> [{quoted}](name=Rewt,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KZEz4qze,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2019-12-09T21:24:21.712+0000) > > You can instapop an ADC at least. If they misposition you can blow them up. > > Trynd on the other hand. If he gets a lead it can start 1v5 if your team doesn't have enough CC. I played against one last night. (Our top laner is still learning the game so he is being yoinked into matches with Golds and getting slaughtered when he plays with us.) So my ADC and I are like 10/1/2 and 2/2/10 respectively. The trynd was like 8/1/0. In most cases the super fed Thresh and MF should be able to clap any champ. But in this case I simply didnt have enough CC to keep the trynd off my ADC for 7 seconds. Since you have take out all his HP, Then survive the next 5 seconds of invuln, then the inevitable 1/2 his hp heal. He killed my ADC in 2 right clicks. > > There is counterplay to an ADC. You can assassinate them. there is an entire class of champions dedicated to killing them. Trynd on the other hand. "Just CC him for 7 seconds 4Head" Yes trynd is so much better and safer than adcs thats why you see him so much in pro play and his winrate is so high. Oh wait.
: > [{quoted}](name=vgamedude,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pEkEN7x3,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2019-12-09T20:55:26.469+0000) > > These are plat plus stats from op gg. Where do you get your stats? Oh thats right you're not quoting any. > > Akali isn't broken at high elo. Actual strong picks that get spammed in pro play like xayah or kaisa, of which kai sa is VERY strong considering her pickrate. Don't get touched. > > There has always been adc bias, this is nothing new. When you have an entire role dedicated to one class type and when it's the only role in the game like that for 10 years that really says it all. Might wanna actually quote stats from sites that display data from every server instead of Korea like U.gg.
> [{quoted}](name=Hayaishi2,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pEkEN7x3,comment-id=000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-12-09T21:26:11.320+0000) > > Might wanna actually quote stats from sites that display data from every server instead of Korea like U.gg. What site do you prefer then? Why is korea data somehow irrelevent? Youve done nothing but put down what I quote while providing nothing
Meserion (NA)
: Mana and Mana Regen Rework
I don't see why mages should have really hard mana issues along with having much harder access to life steal and other sustain. Seems very unfair when adcs can get it easily in runes and items along with other ad users.
: > [{quoted}](name=vgamedude,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1Alsr33j,comment-id=00080000000000000000,timestamp=2019-12-09T20:41:03.182+0000) > > HIS E IS NOT UNDODGEABLE > > what is orbwalking? Or adcs with dashes or escapes etc.? Stop pretending like it's just as hard for someone to auto as it is to hit a skill shot. Maybe try playing heimer once and you will know how ridiculous this is. HIS E IS NOT DODGEABLE WHILE IN ANIMATION LOCK. CAN YOU EVEN EYEBALL? and oh? So your only option is to play hyper mobile garbage?
> [{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1Alsr33j,comment-id=000800000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-12-09T20:56:06.456+0000) > > HIS E IS NOT DODGEABLE WHILE IN ANIMATION LOCK. CAN YOU EVEN EYEBALL? > > and oh? So your only option is to play hyper mobile garbage? ANIMATION LOCK FOR AN ADC WITH ATTACK SPEED AUTO ATTACK? Are you actually kidding? Hyper mobile garbage? Most adcs have mobility or escapes now too. Holy hell adc mains are entitled. One mage gets a 2 percent pickrate in bot lane that is still 90 percent marksmen and you guys cry about how broken it is.
: So, let's talk Akali
Akali is statistically weak and there are at least 3 or 4 adcs that are so much better than her pickrate and winrate and don't get touched. It's typical riot dumping on solo laners. Per the usual.
: > [{quoted}](name=vgamedude,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pEkEN7x3,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2019-12-09T20:42:53.268+0000) > > Do me a favor and sort by pick rate. Look how many of the picks are marksmen. Lucian has a THIRTY PERCENT. 30 PERCENT. Pick rate with a 48 percent winrate. Kai sa, another supposed high skill adc, 35 percent pickrate. > > Akali has 20 percent pickrate and a 47 percent winrate and GETS NERFED AGAIN. > > think about that for a second if you honestly dont think riot is biased toward adcs. Where are you even looking at the stats? Also Akali is overpowered in high elo and that is where she gets nerfed.
> [{quoted}](name=Hayaishi2,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pEkEN7x3,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2019-12-09T20:47:51.943+0000) > > Where are you even looking at the stats? > > Also Akali is overpowered in high elo and that is where she gets nerfed. These are plat plus stats from op gg. Where do you get your stats? Oh thats right you're not quoting any. Akali isn't broken at high elo. Actual strong picks that get spammed in pro play like xayah or kaisa, of which kai sa is VERY strong considering her pickrate. Don't get touched. There has always been adc bias, this is nothing new. When you have an entire role dedicated to one class type and when it's the only role in the game like that for 10 years that really says it all.
Tentaku (EUNE)
: I don't mind Trynda when he is a rare sight, but when his playrate raises he needs to be dealt with
So tryndamere is a braindead right click champion that needs nerfs because of his playrate but numerous beginner friendly adcs with literally 10x his pick rate are fine? Those champions can also see pro play, trynd doesn't. Hes not even good right now.
: > [{quoted}](name=vgamedude,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pEkEN7x3,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-12-09T20:35:23.304+0000) > > Considering lucians winrate and supposed difficulty after they just nerfed ryze and akali, he should be nerfed. But he wont be. > > look at miss fortune and ashes winrate and pick percents, and no nerfs for then. Riot has made it clear marksmen are allowed to be busted. Lucian is on a 48% win rate? And every lane has champiosn with ridiculous win rates and pick rates not just marksmen lol.
> [{quoted}](name=Hayaishi2,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pEkEN7x3,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-12-09T20:37:05.587+0000) > > Lucian is on a 48% win rate? > > And every lane has champiosn with ridiculous win rates and pick rates not just marksmen lol. Do me a favor and sort by pick rate. Look how many of the picks are marksmen. Lucian has a THIRTY PERCENT. 30 PERCENT. Pick rate with a 48 percent winrate. Kai sa, another supposed high skill adc, 35 percent pickrate. Akali has 20 percent pickrate and a 47 percent winrate and GETS NERFED AGAIN. think about that for a second if you honestly dont think riot is biased toward adcs.
: > [{quoted}](name=vgamedude,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1Alsr33j,comment-id=000800000000,timestamp=2019-12-09T20:34:19.771+0000) > > Please do tell what the hell heimerdinger has that is an undodgeable one shot? Pretty rich coming from the role that relies on sustained unmissable attacks. If you auto him and complete one full auto attack. He WILL hit you with his e. And the moment that happens he gets to land a full channeled r>w on you. You cannot dodge this if you auto him. also funny you mention they can’t miss autos. This is because there is no adc instant killing someone in an auto attack unless fed to A STUPID degree.
> [{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1Alsr33j,comment-id=0008000000000000,timestamp=2019-12-09T20:39:00.477+0000) > > If you auto him and complete one full auto attack. He WILL hit you with his e. And the moment that happens he gets to land a full channeled r>w on you. You cannot dodge this if you auto him. > > also funny you mention they can’t miss autos. This is because there is no adc instant killing someone in an auto attack unless fed to A STUPID degree. HIS E IS NOT UNDODGEABLE >you cant dodge if you auto him what is orbwalking? Or adcs with dashes or escapes etc.? Stop pretending like it's just as hard for someone to auto as it is to hit a skill shot. Maybe try playing heimer once and you will know how ridiculous this is.
Antenora (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=Trap2B,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=deZgEA8i,comment-id=000000000001,timestamp=2019-12-09T04:45:08.712+0000) > > then can we get Ryze and Kennen out of top and all the adcs too? It's only not a problem because no one cares about top When we get the cancer mages out of bot lane, we can talk.
> [{quoted}](name=Antenora,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=deZgEA8i,comment-id=0000000000010000,timestamp=2019-12-09T11:28:46.006+0000) > > When we get the cancer mages out of bot lane, we can talk. There are like two mages with a combined pick rate of around 4 percent. Spare me adc who has been a required staple for 10 damn years on this game.
Trap2B (NA)
: How come when a toplaner is strong mid they get kneecapped by the riot nerf squad {{champion:39}} {{champion:39}} {{champion:39}} but when a midlaner/adc/ranged thing bullies top no one cares? {{champion:85}} {{champion:85}} {{champion:85}}
> [{quoted}](name=Trap2B,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=deZgEA8i,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-12-09T01:59:22.724+0000) > > How come when a toplaner is strong mid they get kneecapped by the riot nerf squad {{champion:39}} {{champion:39}} {{champion:39}} but when a midlaner/adc/ranged thing bullies top no one cares? {{champion:85}} {{champion:85}} {{champion:85}} Because top is literally the punching bag. It's the weakest and worst role in the game and it's not even close. It's an absolute joke.
Neriticc (EUW)
: So you buff crit without nerfing Yasuo and Trynda?
Yes lets focus on the two underperforming solo laners instead of the entire adc role having their items buffed.
: What do you all think about Crit Lucian this season? Do you think that it/he will get nerfed?
Considering lucians winrate and supposed difficulty after they just nerfed ryze and akali, he should be nerfed. But he wont be. look at miss fortune and ashes winrate and pick percents, and no nerfs for then. Riot has made it clear marksmen are allowed to be busted.
: > [{quoted}](name=vgamedude,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1Alsr33j,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2019-12-09T18:07:27.557+0000) > > By right clicking on him since his abilities can actually miss. While simultaneously outscaling him. And then die instantly to him because of his undodgeable one shot?
> [{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1Alsr33j,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2019-12-09T19:01:03.612+0000) > > And then die instantly to him because of his undodgeable one shot? Please do tell what the hell heimerdinger has that is an undodgeable one shot? Pretty rich coming from the role that relies on sustained unmissable attacks.
: you think adc's have it bad? worse top lane. Bot lane feeds and enemy gets 2 drags but you go 3-0 in lane? well gg next guess i should just play better
> [{quoted}](name=ÈvilMorty,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=y9bU62A9,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2019-12-08T08:08:35.457+0000) > > you think adc's have it bad? worse top lane. Bot lane feeds and enemy gets 2 drags but you go 3-0 in lane? well gg next guess i should just play better This. I've literally just quit playing top lane even though it was always my favorite role. By far the most useless and unimpactful role in the entire game and it's not even close.
: Bite the pillow. Because adcs have been gutted.
> [{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=y9bU62A9,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2019-12-08T05:25:03.203+0000) > > Bite the pillow. Because adcs have been gutted. Gutted so hard they are still required in every game and 95+ percent pickrate bot and have some access to other lanes. I'm so tired of reading this incorrect drivel.
pwc2016 (NA)
: WTF can you even do as ADC if every other lane feeds?
You realize your lane is all that matters? Do you know what its like playing garen, darius etc against a fed adc? Or a mage when you have to actually land abilities while they just auto you and kill you with undodgeable attacks?
: Can Heimerdinger be looked at?
Look at his pick rates. If he gets nerfed while Ashe and MF sit at similar winrates and insane pickrates it will just be even more riot adc bias. Heimer isn't broken at all.
: What's the reasoning behind mages like Cassio/Ryze ?
Ive never understood adcs it's just " right click right click right click" and I'm blown up! They can't even miss
HalexUwU (NA)
: How do you play against himerdinger adc?
By right clicking on him since his abilities can actually miss. While simultaneously outscaling him.
Shahamut (NA)
: But hey! It's fine that they can play their marksman in mid and top though, because variety! But dont touch my precious bot lane you filthy mages!
> [{quoted}](name=Shahamut,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FA52KuVA,comment-id=0003000000010001,timestamp=2019-11-28T18:50:59.001+0000) > > But hey! It's fine that they can play their marksman in mid and top though, because variety! But dont touch my precious bot lane you filthy mages! The old adc entitlement. Thats what made me quit this game before for many months and probably will again. i'm absolutely sick of this games forced meta and adc coddling.
: Mages are hella over powered. > [{quoted}](name=Cairo King,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FA52KuVA,comment-id=000100000000000000020000,timestamp=2019-11-27T23:13:58.688+0000) > > ADC smurfs can't climb solo q as F A S T as mid laners. because mages out scale adc's. I'm talking ryze, xerath, Cassiopeia etc... the number 1 xerath had a 99% wr climbing to diamond mmr on a smurf, it says a lot about mages as double lift would probably 100% not have a 99% wr on a smurf.
> [{quoted}](name=Cairo King,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FA52KuVA,comment-id=0003000000010000,timestamp=2019-11-27T23:14:39.093+0000) > > Mages are hella over powered. Nice actual lie. If they were overpowered theyd have more representation bot than the 2 percent or whatever pickrate heimerdinger has.
: > They still cant even hit through minions usually. Like this argument is actually absurd, and with auto attacks you can attack move click and more and youre trying to pretend like thats comparable to hitting skill shots. Pure delusion. You're only looking at the cons of skillshots, which you listed as "can't go through minions" and "can miss." Have you considered that some skillshots can infact go through minions? And despite that they can be missed, some can apply CC, allowing you to hit the rest of your skillshots easily? > you can find people at the top level miss spells on mages, you don't miss auto attacks. Stop furthering this absolute delusion and just accept the truth. Yes, except that most (mage) skillshots have atleast 100 higher range than any attack range in the game. Sit out of the marksman attack range, and you can't get hit. Then just throw a spell or two until you hit. It's all in your favor, unless you decide to run into the marksman's range and die, in which case you are the delusional one. And I should have clarified, you lost your credibility due to the champions you mentioned. Ryze has point-and-click spells, and only one skillshot. Syndra has superior range and easy to hit CC. Neither are exceptionally hard to play. I have no idea why I even bother arguing with you, since you're just one of the sheep in the herd who thinks that ADCs are evil and they shouldn't be allowed anything in the game.
> [{quoted}](name=RegardsKitty,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sjMqTY5Y,comment-id=000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-12-09T13:48:42.577+0000) > > You're only looking at the cons of skillshots, which you listed as "can't go through minions" and "can miss." Have you considered that some skillshots can infact go through minions? And despite that they can be missed, some can apply CC, allowing you to hit the rest of your skillshots easily? > > Yes, except that most (mage) skillshots have atleast 100 higher range than any attack range in the game. Sit out of the marksman attack range, and you can't get hit. Then just throw a spell or two until you hit. It's all in your favor, unless you decide to run into the marksman's range and die, in which case you are the delusional one. > > And I should have clarified, you lost your credibility due to the champions you mentioned. Ryze has point-and-click spells, and only one skillshot. Syndra has superior range and easy to hit CC. Neither are exceptionally hard to play. > > I have no idea why I even bother arguing with you, since you're just one of the sheep in the herd who thinks that ADCs are evil and they shouldn't be allowed anything in the game. MOST SKILLSHOTS CANT go through minions and even if it can, guess what? AUTOS GO THROUGH MINIONS AND CANNOT miss. How can you even make such a stupid argument?
: > Superior range? Depends on the mage, and most can get their entire damages blocked by minions and dodged. You pretend like it takes far more effort to auto attack? What a joke. Yes, but getting into autoattack range means the mage can more easily hit their spells. Sure it takes less effort to press right click than it takes to throw a skillshot, but consider that the skillshot usually has greater range, damage, and has other effects like CC on it. Not to mention, hitting one CC spell lets you hit the rest with low effort, since they enemy can't dodge. Autoattacking champions usually need to get a few items before they actually become powerful, whereas a mage buys lost chapter, powerspikes and spams spells to no end. > Mages aren't the ones who have an entire class/role combo carry role reserved just for them throughout the entire games life span. You can have a team comp without mages, it is very difficult to have one without a marksmen otherwise you're shooting yourself in the foot. Then tell me about mage botlanes. Or Yasuo ADC. I've seen them doing well. Proves that you don't need a marksman to win. Speaking of mages going bot, how often do marksmen go mid? Haven't seen many on mid, but I have seen a lot more mages on bot. > Also look at the marksmen champions pick rates and winrates, they are statistically easy to play. Winrates are bad when trying to define the state of a character. Look at Yuumi, bad winrate but still one of the most toxic designs. > Far easier than mages like ryze, syndra, etc. And right there you lost all your credibility.
> [{quoted}](name=RegardsKitty,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sjMqTY5Y,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-25T10:53:30.903+0000) > > Yes, but getting into autoattack range means the mage can more easily hit their spells. Sure it takes less effort to press right click than it takes to throw a skillshot, but consider that the skillshot usually has greater range, damage, and has other effects like CC on it. Not to mention, hitting one CC spell lets you hit the rest with low effort, since they enemy can't dodge. > > Autoattacking champions usually need to get a few items before they actually become powerful, whereas a mage buys lost chapter, powerspikes and spams spells to no end. > > Then tell me about mage botlanes. Or Yasuo ADC. I've seen them doing well. Proves that you don't need a marksman to win. > > Speaking of mages going bot, how often do marksmen go mid? Haven't seen many on mid, but I have seen a lot more mages on bot. > > Winrates are bad when trying to define the state of a character. Look at Yuumi, bad winrate but still one of the most toxic designs. > > And right there you lost all your credibility. They still cant even hit through minions usually. Like this argument is actually absurd, and with auto attacks you can attack move click and more and youre trying to pretend like thats comparable to hitting skill shots. Pure delusion. >lost your credibility you can find people at the top level miss spells on mages, you don't miss auto attacks. Stop furthering this absolute delusion and just accept the truth.
: Yes I do recall looking at the pickrates, it still says something regardless. Off meta picks should not thrive in bot lane. I bet you if I were to play mid lane carries that have the same role as adc's, such as ryze or cass, I'd have a lot more success than playing an actual adc bot lane.
> [{quoted}](name=Cairo King,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FA52KuVA,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2019-11-23T18:07:36.277+0000) > > Yes I do recall looking at the pickrates, it still says something regardless. Off meta picks should not thrive in bot lane. I bet you if I were to play mid lane carries that have the same role as adc's, such as ryze or cass, I'd have a lot more success than playing an actual adc bot lane. Off meta? Youre literally saying anything besides marksmen bot is off meta and should be nerfed or discouraged. And people wonder why this game has no variety and is stale.
Antenora (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=vgamedude,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gcMhLtz6,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-11-23T13:10:36.508+0000) > > It is gross. Look at melee vs ranged in this game vs dota. > > Imagine if you could actually have the ATTACK DAMAGE CARRY be a melee user like jax, trynd etc. No variety allowed in league though! Have to constantly cater to those marksmen and their right click outplay. That's funny because there's plenty of Swain, Heimer, Cassio, Syndra being played bot lane.
> [{quoted}](name=Antenora,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gcMhLtz6,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2019-11-23T17:17:57.505+0000) > > That's funny because there's plenty of Swain, Heimer, Cassio, Syndra being played bot lane. No there isn't. Unless you count probably around 3 percent pick rate for ALL non marskmen bot laners "plenty". Swain is under 1 percent, around half a percent according to op gg. adc players allergic to facts.
Zardo (NA)
: >position smartly? As if melee doesnt have to do that just to get attacks off? Yeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah no. Jax running into the backline and stunning them doesn't require positioning. Yi ulting and running into the backline doesn't require positioning. Tryndamere running into the backline then ulting doesn't require positioning. > Same with mages They do, but not anywhere near as much. Most have self peel and can build zhonyas, so they have much more freedom to play more aggressively.
> [{quoted}](name=Zardo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nWMEAGJo,comment-id=000000010001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-23T15:20:00.176+0000) > > Yeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah no. > > Jax running into the backline and stunning them doesn't require positioning. Yi ulting and running into the backline doesn't require positioning. Tryndamere running into the backline then ulting doesn't require positioning. > > They do, but not anywhere near as much. Most have self peel and can build zhonyas, so they have much more freedom to play more aggressively. Positioning near someone to attack them and following and orb walking isn't positioning, you heard it here first folks. Go play a jax and leap in with no regard and see how that works out for you. And of course apparently there is zero peel or mobility in this game according to you. Im just imagining a jax walking down mid slowly towards their back line and no one reacting or moving. Leap strike also apparently has insane range.
: > [{quoted}](name=vgamedude,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xadmhu7k,comment-id=0000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-23T14:23:31.383+0000) > > BOTLANE HAS TWO people we have established that, what you also ignore is that one of the two, the "CARRY", is practically required to be a marksman. This is simple fact. Hahhaha your downvoting my posts. Thats cute. Its not a simple fact; not even at the pro level. Mages and bruisers have been played there IN PRO GAMES. And they are even more viable in solo Q. And regardless if its Marksmen or not, that is NOT the reason any solo Q top/mid/jg ganks botlane, which is your core argument. The reason they gank the lane, is because its 2 underleveled people, dragon is down there, and there are more people to push(and more help). They are not ganking because of your reason. The simplest answer is usually the easiest one, and people arent going, "well I gotta keep this ADC down!" No, they are going, "I need to abuse my lvl 6, where can I go? Oh yea lets go throw my ult on this Ashe/Zyra botlane. Gotta be able to pick at least one of these lvl 4's off." So thats your core arguement. ADCs are so OP, that you just have ot gank them. When the simplest, and most logical answer, is there is more, and easier, people to kill botlane. And, there is more help. LIke you 100% go to the naut support lane to get your kill instead of the damn Vlad toplane to do it, where there is actual gank assist, and most supports are loaded with CC to help secure it.
LOOK UP THE PLAY RATES. It is simple fact. You're arguing against data. Heimer has like a 2 percent winrate according to op gg, less on champ gg, swain is at .5 percent and those are the only two even listed that are non marksmen. In worlds early you saw people try mage bot lane and garen yuumi, but guess what? Once you got closer to the championship everyone started playing xayah, kaisa, sivir, and varis. There isn't some magic amount of variety in this game that you think there is. It's marksmen show in bot and always has been
: > [{quoted}](name=vgamedude,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nWMEAGJo,comment-id=0000000100010000,timestamp=2019-11-23T13:23:57.582+0000) > > Yet its okay for adcs who see highest level pro play to right click people to death? Trynd at least has to keep up with them properly and aim his E and more. > > The entire point of trynd is to be a split monster, it's all he has. > > Edit: lmao salty adc mains downvoting this. You are the real right clickers And you ignored the part where ADCs had to kite from a certain range & being completely squishy at the same time. Tryndamere is someone that you right click on a single enemy, and then lift your hand away from the mouse in order to do the exact same results. Oh, and 1 finger on the ult in case you're close to dying.
> [{quoted}](name=BeatzBoyFTW,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nWMEAGJo,comment-id=00000001000100000001,timestamp=2019-11-23T14:33:30.246+0000) > > And you ignored the part where ADCs had to kite from a certain range & being completely squishy at the same time. > > Tryndamere is someone that you right click on a single enemy, and then lift your hand away from the mouse in order to do the exact same results. Oh, and 1 finger on the ult in case you're close to dying. They have the OPTION TO KITE. Trynd and melees get kited. Why do you think in this game you can't ever have an ADC bot thats melee? The ONLY exception is yasuo and even he struggles down there and is an astronomical rarity. Also good luck getting any autos of if you think you can just right click on someone as trynd and let the autos fly off. Unless youre standing and delivering in iron 4 lvl 1 against someone that isn't going to happen. orb walking on melees like trynd is harder than adcs even because you have to match exactly what your target is doing to just stay in range to auto, and you have to aim your e spin often to where they are heading just to get a few more autos off.
Zardo (NA)
: Most adcs dont have the mobility to deal with someone dashing into melee range, so they have to position smartly, range advantage or not.
> [{quoted}](name=Zardo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nWMEAGJo,comment-id=0000000100010000000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-23T14:38:34.677+0000) > > Most adcs dont have the mobility to deal with someone dashing into melee range, so they have to position smartly, range advantage or not. position smartly? As if melee doesnt have to do that just to get attacks off? Everyone has to position. Same with mages. Also plenty of adcs have mobility or even an oh crap button.
: > [{quoted}](name=vgamedude,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xadmhu7k,comment-id=00000001000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-23T14:14:03.703+0000) > > They are. You can't just say bruisers and mages have been there and ignore how abysmal their play rate is. Especially at higher level games like pro and high elo. > > Marksmen is too strong. And even when you rarely did see something other than a marksmen bot it was typically coupled with playing a marksmen mid like tristana. > > Numbers don't lie. Bot lane carry is 99 percent marksmen. The "ATTACK DAMAGE" carry role should mean alot of things but it doesn't It literally just means marksmen. It alwasy amuses me when people turn entire arguments into their own bias. You hate ADCs. You have warped your mind to believe that people just gank bot lane to shut down ADCs. People who gank botlane dont give a damn about shutting down anyone. They are trying to get themselves fed to carry the game. When you are thirsty, you go to where the water is. Botlane has 2 people; it has the highest reward to risk ratio of getting yourself fed. You can roam bot on your Fizz/Syndra/Zed, get 2 kills on easy to kill targets; usually immobile, too, and transfer that into your own ability to carry. It has nothing to do with worrying about shutting down what you consider the most OP role. That does not even factor into people's equations. You know when you hit 6, you are higher level, you have higher potential to get kills and gold and far less risk than going into the jungle or going top lane. Its as simple as that. It also helps that dragons are OP, and killing 2 people down there gives you the best chance to take plates and take dragons since there are more people to do those at that time. The vast majority of us will always play a solo Q game. Always. And in a solo Q game, its all about getting yourself fed and carrying the game, and the easiest way to do that is to kill a lot of people, and the easiest people to usually kill to start snowballing is the botlane.
> [{quoted}](name=DestructoDave,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xadmhu7k,comment-id=000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-23T14:22:14.695+0000) > > It alwasy amuses me when people turn entire arguments into their own bias. You hate ADCs. You have warped your mind to believe that people just gank bot lane to shut down ADCs. People who gank botlane dont give a damn about shutting down anyone. They are trying to get themselves fed to carry the game. > > When you are thirsty, you go to where the water is. Botlane has 2 people; it has the highest reward to risk ratio of getting yourself fed. You can roam bot on your Fizz/Syndra/Zed, get 2 kills on easy to kill targets; usually immobile, too, and transfer that into your own ability to carry. It has nothing to do with worrying about shutting down what you consider the most OP role. That does not even factor into people's equations. You know when you hit 6, you are higher level, you have higher potential to get kills and gold and far less risk than going into the jungle or going top lane. > > Its as simple as that. It also helps that dragons are OP, and killing 2 people down there gives you the best chance to take plates and take dragons since there are more people to do those at that time. > > The vast majority of us will always play a solo Q game. Always. And in a solo Q game, its all about getting yourself fed and carrying the game, and the easiest way to do that is to kill a lot of people, and the easiest people to usually kill to start snowballing is the botlane. BOTLANE HAS TWO people we have established that, what you also ignore is that one of the two, the "CARRY", is practically required to be a marksman. This is simple fact.
: > [{quoted}](name=vgamedude,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xadmhu7k,comment-id=000000010000,timestamp=2019-11-23T14:07:54.925+0000) > > It has everything to do with that. If the only reason was that it was a 2 person lane, one of the people in that lane wouldnt always be a marksmen. They aren't. Mages and bruisers have already been played down there all season. And its still ganked all the time, because it has the highest potential affect on the entire game, because of the amount of people there and the proximity to early objectives; plates and dragons. You can have a hate boner for ADCs all you want, but its pretty logical as to why people gank that lane. You can ruin 2+ people and get 3+ people ahead anytime you have success down there, take early objectives, and the targets are usually fairly easy to deal with even if they have a lead. An ADC with a BF sword will still die to a Fizz/Zed/Syndra/Xin/Kha/whatever shows up down there, and hvae little risk of a counter kill. Meanwhile the same cannot be said for ganking a renekton/panth/whatever top lane, or a Syndra/whatever midlane.
> [{quoted}](name=DestructoDave,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xadmhu7k,comment-id=0000000100000000,timestamp=2019-11-23T14:11:48.090+0000) > > They aren't. Mages and bruisers have already been played down there all season. And its still ganked all the time, because it has the highest potential affect on the entire game, because of the amount of people there and the proximity to early objectives; plates and dragons. > > You can have a hate boner for ADCs all you want, but its pretty logical as to why people gank that lane. You can ruin 2+ people and get 3+ people ahead anytime you have success down there, take early objectives, and the targets are usually fairly easy to deal with even if they have a lead. An ADC with a BF sword will still die to a Fizz/Zed/Syndra/Xin/Kha/whatever shows up down there, and hvae little risk of a counter kill. Meanwhile the same cannot be said for ganking a renekton/panth/whatever top lane, or a Syndra/whatever midlane. They are. You can't just say bruisers and mages have been there and ignore how abysmal their play rate is. Especially at higher level games like pro and high elo. Marksmen is too strong. And even when you rarely did see something other than a marksmen bot it was typically coupled with playing a marksmen mid like tristana. Numbers don't lie. Bot lane carry is 99 percent marksmen. The "ATTACK DAMAGE" carry role should mean alot of things but it doesn't It literally just means marksmen.
: > [{quoted}](name=vgamedude,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xadmhu7k,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-11-21T11:07:05.589+0000) > > Not just dragon. ADCs are the strongest overall role so it is just too incentivized to go there all the time. Mid champions roam there and even top laners tp there. > > To change this the lane as a whole would have to be weaker but nobody will ever do that or let the game have more variety Has nothing to do with that. Its a 2 person lane, and both people are generally always lower level than whoever roams down there. Couple that with the fact ADCs are generally very weak early and easy kills, and most supports are squishy, too, it makes little sense to roam top lane for a single potential kill that is much harder to secure when botlane has dragons, and much easier targets, and MORE targets to kill. Its also got 2 other people in the lane to help push down turrets/get plates, share assist gold. It really doesnt matter what is botlane; the fact of the matter is its where you can have the most impact on the game as a whole; you can boost 3+ people on your team, while shutting down 2+ on theirs, and the risk of being counter-killed is far less. A fed top laner can easily 2v1 and even 3v1 at times; it doesnt matter how fed an ADC is if you land a syndra combo at lvl 6 hes probably just dead.
> [{quoted}](name=DestructoDave,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xadmhu7k,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2019-11-23T14:07:02.830+0000) > > Has nothing to do with that. Its a 2 person lane, and both people are generally always lower level than whoever roams down there. Couple that with the fact ADCs are generally very weak early and easy kills, and most supports are squishy, too, it makes little sense to roam top lane for a single potential kill that is much harder to secure when botlane has dragons, and much easier targets, and MORE targets to kill. Its also got 2 other people in the lane to help push down turrets/get plates, share assist gold. > > It really doesnt matter what is botlane; the fact of the matter is its where you can have the most impact on the game as a whole; you can boost 3+ people on your team, while shutting down 2+ on theirs, and the risk of being counter-killed is far less. A fed top laner can easily 2v1 and even 3v1 at times; it doesnt matter how fed an ADC is if you land a syndra combo at lvl 6 hes probably just dead. It has everything to do with that. If the only reason was that it was a 2 person lane, one of the people in that lane wouldnt always be a marksmen.
Zardo (NA)
: If adcs had a "I dont die but I can still aa" button youd be on to something.
> [{quoted}](name=Zardo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nWMEAGJo,comment-id=00000001000100000000,timestamp=2019-11-23T14:04:00.922+0000) > > If adcs had a "I dont die but I can still aa" button youd be on to something. ADCs dont have to BE IN MELEE RANGE like tryndamere does.
: He deserves a full on Sion-level rework. There's a reason he wasn't touched so much on heavy balancing. Tryndamere expresses completely 0 gameplay except right-clicking his opponents to death, presses R when close to death, and has a seriously aggravating split-pushing power. Now with the introduction of {{item:3181}} , he would be a terrible nuisance to deal with once he start splitpushing & forcing an opponent to keep an eye on him.
> [{quoted}](name=BeatzBoyFTW,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nWMEAGJo,comment-id=000000010001,timestamp=2019-11-23T13:19:43.743+0000) > > He deserves a full on Sion-level rework. There's a reason he wasn't touched so much on heavy balancing. > > Tryndamere expresses completely 0 gameplay except right-clicking his opponents to death, presses R when close to death, and has a seriously aggravating split-pushing power. Now with the introduction of {{item:3181}} , he would be a terrible nuisance to deal with once he start splitpushing & forcing an opponent to keep an eye on him. Yet its okay for adcs who see highest level pro play to right click people to death? Trynd at least has to keep up with them properly and aim his E and more. The entire point of trynd is to be a split monster, it's all he has. Edit: lmao salty adc mains downvoting this. You are the real right clickers
Tayzzer (NA)
: to be fair tho hes doing well in 9.23 cuz sanguine fits him so well
> [{quoted}](name=Tayzzer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nWMEAGJo,comment-id=000000010000,timestamp=2019-11-23T13:15:23.190+0000) > > to be fair tho hes doing well in 9.23 cuz sanguine fits him so well I think its a bit too early to say he's doing well.
: Ok, then reduce down his Crit chance.
> [{quoted}](name=BeatzBoyFTW,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nWMEAGJo,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-11-23T13:12:54.158+0000) > > Ok, then reduce down his Crit chance. Oh yes because slightly buffing an absolute garbage can tier champion will make him so busted. If anything they should buff or change his w or add a small movement slow to his e if it hits a champion as well.
KazKaz (OCE)
: What happened to addressing melee vs ranged matchups?
It is gross. Look at melee vs ranged in this game vs dota. Imagine if you could actually have the ATTACK DAMAGE CARRY be a melee user like jax, trynd etc. No variety allowed in league though! Have to constantly cater to those marksmen and their right click outplay.
Mr Sa1nt (NA)
: Lol when they wanted to make mordekaiser a marksman, whatever that meant. I don't know why they wanted him to be a "marksman", and not simply a viable bot lane choice. They just love taking away options. There was a nice pro game of a team using a Heimerdinger jungle, then they grouped mid and shoved lane hard. That wasn't ideal strategy imo...but at least it was DIFFERENT. They shouldn't have been able to push so easily and end, for sure...but it just shows that it could make the game more interesting. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRAoZJolrYI&ab_channel=ESLAsia I'm actually pretty sure this game is a big part of why turrets have shields and silly/illogical resistances. It never made sense to me that specific lanes had stronger turrets than others. They literally added those, only to eliminate strategies.
> [{quoted}](name=Mr Sa1nt,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rYu6xvYy,comment-id=0002000300000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-23T12:45:28.148+0000) > > Lol when they wanted to make mordekaiser a marksman, whatever that meant. I don't know why they wanted him to be a "marksman", and not simply a viable bot lane choice. They just love taking away options. > > There was a nice pro game of a team using a Heimerdinger jungle, then they grouped mid and shoved lane hard. That wasn't ideal strategy imo...but at least it was DIFFERENT. They shouldn't have been able to push so easily and end, for sure...but it just shows that it could make the game more interesting. > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRAoZJolrYI&ab_channel=ESLAsia > > I'm actually pretty sure this game is a big part of why turrets have shields and silly/illogical resistances. It never made sense to me that specific lanes had stronger turrets than others. They literally added those, only to eliminate strategies. Yep. It's ludicrous. It's so sad to because I love the way this game feels over dota but dota has so much more strategy and depth, I just don't enjoy the feel of it much. league could be so much better but the popularity and insistence from not only riot but streamers and players of enforcing the dumb as hell duo bot lane right click meta this game has had for a decade just ruins any hope for variety and change.
: > [{quoted}](name=vgamedude,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sjMqTY5Y,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-11-23T12:05:46.584+0000) > > ADC talking about having to dodge things. Excuse me if I don't feel for the person who does undodgable damage. Unlike the ADC, mages have superior range and deal much more damage early than an ADC. Also mages have CC which makes hitting their spells easy. But yeah, keep on being delusional that ADCs are the unbalanced ones.
> [{quoted}](name=RegardsKitty,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sjMqTY5Y,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-11-23T12:51:06.496+0000) > > Unlike the ADC, mages have superior range and deal much more damage early than an ADC. Also mages have CC which makes hitting their spells easy. > > But yeah, keep on being delusional that ADCs are the unbalanced ones. Superior range? Depends on the mage, and most can get their entire damages blocked by minions and dodged. You pretend like it takes far more effort to auto attack? What a joke. Mages aren't the ones who have an entire class/role combo carry role reserved just for them throughout the entire games life span. You can have a team comp without mages, it is very difficult to have one without a marksmen otherwise you're shooting yourself in the foot. Also look at the marksmen champions pick rates and winrates, they are statistically easy to play. Far easier than mages like ryze, syndra, etc.
Mr Sa1nt (NA)
: Double jungle used to actually be a decent strategy, and that got gutted by simply adding role selection. I wonder if pro players actually scrim different setups anymore AT ALL. I feel like they also have it in their heads that there is only one way to win nowadays. I wonder if there's ever been a meta that should've been better at the time, that just went unnoticed...because of all this forced meta crap. Also somewhat a side note, I'd noticed in the last couple months of the season...the meta was for some reason, highly point and click characters(nautilus being a prime example). That is such boring and un-interactive gameplay. I'm not sure that was an intentional meta, but it definitely existed.
> [{quoted}](name=Mr Sa1nt,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rYu6xvYy,comment-id=00020003000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-23T12:31:21.123+0000) > > Double jungle used to actually be a decent strategy, and that got gutted by simply adding role selection. > > I wonder if pro players actually scrim different setups anymore AT ALL. I feel like they also have it in their heads that there is only one way to win nowadays. I wonder if there's ever been a meta that should've been better at the time, that just went unnoticed...because of all this forced meta crap. > > Also somewhat a side note, I'd noticed in the last couple months of the season...the meta was for some reason, highly point and click characters(nautilus being a prime example). That is such boring and un-interactive gameplay. I'm not sure that was an intentional meta, but it definitely existed. I bet the pros don't do anything like that. It's probably more valuable to just spend all your time refining the way riot clearly WANTS the game to be played down to the finest edge. If there was some different meta found riot would just "fix" it right after discovery anyway. Same thing happened not long ago when riot said they wanted to have more diversity in the bot lane carry role and the second mages and more started going down there riot "fixed" it so that since then until now it's 99 percent marksmen again.
Mr Sa1nt (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=vgamedude,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rYu6xvYy,comment-id=00020003,timestamp=2019-11-23T12:10:12.128+0000) > This is the problem with league. Riot enforcing stale meta and undiverse gameplay. RNG dragons, now complimented only by making the map change on an RNG scale...allowing for immobile champions to have better rotational patterns IN AN RNG WAY. Role selection, jungle specific items, support specific items. Riot does all kinds of crap that is just...not good. They don't like strategy at all, which is interesting because this kind of game is meant to HAVE strategy. They love their stale duo bot lane meta. They don't want players to go into ranked and have to communicate anything extra. There's so little to learn in terms of strategy to this game.
> [{quoted}](name=Mr Sa1nt,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rYu6xvYy,comment-id=000200030000,timestamp=2019-11-23T12:15:39.475+0000) > > RNG dragons, now complimented only by making the map change on an RNG scale...allowing for immobile champions to have better rotational patterns IN AN RNG WAY. > > Role selection, jungle specific items, support specific items. Riot does all kinds of crap that is just...not good. They don't like strategy at all, which is interesting because this kind of game is meant to HAVE strategy. They love their stale duo bot lane meta. They don't want players to go into ranked and have to communicate anything extra. There's so little to learn in terms of strategy to this game. The stale duo bot lane meta is at the core of why this game is so unflinching and stale. The most popular lane in terms of champs and pick rates, makes people feel good when they dodge a skill shot and right click down for a penta kill etc. Riot enforces this every patch and every season so you never see different strats or diversity, never see supports changing, never see 2, 1 , 2 lane setups, never see different carries NOTHING. Watching a dota 2 pro game draft and comparing it a league one is so sad. This game FEELS good to play but your right, they just try and kill any strategy or diversity.
Dynikus (NA)
: zz'rot was a terrible item that promoted an unhealthy way to play the game, and the removal of it only makes the game better. As for the rest, _it's day 3 of preseason_. Every change they've made is subject to substantial change.
> [{quoted}](name=Dynikus,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rYu6xvYy,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-11-22T21:01:22.610+0000) > > zz'rot was a terrible item that promoted an unhealthy way to play the game, and the removal of it only makes the game better. > As for the rest, _it's day 3 of preseason_. Every change they've made is subject to substantial change. Macro and splitting is unhealthy? I guess if you don't just want to go fiesta NA-ARAM down mid and right click "outplay" in teamfights it's unhealthy. This is the problem with league. Riot enforcing stale meta and undiverse gameplay.
: Those ezreal buffs though, really make up for klepto removal.
Look at his pick rate though. He's also still totally viable. Other laners get far less picked and far more mastery players with lower winrates than that and not a word is said or anything done. But we expect all adcs to be 15 percent or more pick rate and 53 percent wr like jinx? Ezreal isn't even weak, he just isnt AS strong as other marksmen right clickers and he takes some more effort since he actually has to aim.
: This meta will make me succeed at school.
ADC talking about having to dodge things. Excuse me if I don't feel for the person who does undodgable damage.
: Can Cho gath get some love?
Tanks and top laners aren't allowed to be good
: Botlane win rates....
Look at pick rate data before blindly posting that. ADCs that are supposedly "difficult" Have some of the highest pick rates in the game coupled with very high win rates. That is also since they are in every game it is their capability compared to other adcs being judged more than the role strength. Jinx and MF are particularly egregious. The fact of the matter is that marksmen are simply really easy to play and all the data supports this.
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