: > [{quoted}](name=ArtumisPrime,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oQefoXoH,comment-id=000200020000,timestamp=2019-11-06T06:56:09.230+0000) > > Let's put this theory to the test. > > The most picked mid laners at worlds are, in order: > {{champion:13}} 24 games > {{champion:84}} 12 games > {{champion:134}} 11 games > {{champion:10}} 10 games > {{champion:7}} 10 games > {{champion:61}} 8 games > {{champion:246}} 7 games > > This means that of 148 mid lane champion picks, 75 of them, or 50.68%, are mages, and that's from only the top 6. > > In total, in the mid lane, 99 mages have been picked (excluding things like TF who generally built full AD), or 66.89% > > Jungle has Gragas building full AP, and Elise, as 2 of the 3 most picked champions in the role. 43.24% mages via 64 picks. > > Top lane has seen 40 mages, or 27.02% > > Support and ADC have the lowest mage representation, and even they both are above 0, at around 9% each. > > Source: https://gol.gg/tournament/tournament-stats/World%20Championship%202019/ Also, grag and elise aren't pure mages either....literally gragas can also go tank or fighter (sorta) and is basically just an AP skirmisher casting tank hybrid thingy. And elise? No, not a mage. An assassin technically. And again, I stress, what a champ builds is not the only indicator of the class, it's how the kit functions as a whole. Just ridiculous, you completely miss the debate. You're trying to argue about AP champs as a whole when everyone else with their heads screwed on right are talking about mid-long range caster mages.
If you're referring to RIOT's classes, then I'm probably wrong. I think the way RIOT has sectioned champions into different classes is incredibly stupid. The way I look at it, is that there are essentially 5 types of champions. Tanks, bruisers, mages, AD assassins (or just assassins), and ADC (for lack of a better term here, this list includes things like Yi, Yasuo, and Tryn when building full damage) What they build, and the type of damage they deal is what determines what a champion is. This is the way things were looked at before the stupid classes were released, and this is how I will continue to view them. It is simple and logical.
: Calling LB a mage is so desparate.
Oh, look. Even the Wiki agrees with me. https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Champion_classes/Mage#Burst EDIT: Just to be clear, I really don't care what RIOT's classifications are. They mean nothing to me. Just using it as a hypocritical example.
: > [{quoted}](name=LightswornLance,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oQefoXoH,comment-id=00020002000000000001,timestamp=2019-11-06T13:20:29.481+0000) > > "Vlad and Leblanc arent mages" > {{sticker:zombie-brand-mindblown}} Lb is a burst assassin
A burst MAGE All assassins burst. AP assassins are burst mages.
: > [{quoted}](name=ArtumisPrime,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oQefoXoH,comment-id=000200020000,timestamp=2019-11-06T06:56:09.230+0000) > > Let's put this theory to the test. > > The most picked mid laners at worlds are, in order: > {{champion:13}} 24 games > {{champion:84}} 12 games > {{champion:134}} 11 games > {{champion:10}} 10 games > {{champion:7}} 10 games > {{champion:61}} 8 games > {{champion:246}} 7 games > > This means that of 148 mid lane champion picks, 75 of them, or 50.68%, are mages, and that's from only the top 6. > > In total, in the mid lane, 99 mages have been picked (excluding things like TF who generally built full AD), or 66.89% > > Jungle has Gragas building full AP, and Elise, as 2 of the 3 most picked champions in the role. 43.24% mages via 64 picks. > > Top lane has seen 40 mages, or 27.02% > > Support and ADC have the lowest mage representation, and even they both are above 0, at around 9% each. > > Source: https://gol.gg/tournament/tournament-stats/World%20Championship%202019/ Look, I have no opinion on whether mages are OP, overplayed, or if their items are too strong and diverse, but I will say this. You sir, are an idiot. Ok, so you didn't count Qiyana as a mage, great, that part is accurate. But LB a mage? heck no, she's a burst ASSASSIN and ALWAYS HAS BEEN. GTFO. And don't even get me started about akali and kayle. Wow. Your judgment/discernment is horrible or intentionally manipulated to artificially help your argument. Akali is and ASSASSIN and kayle is the AP version of and ADC. Damn, at least get your facts straight. Just because a champ builds mages items or has predominantly magic damage DOESN'T MAKE THEM A MAGE. That's like calling darius a tank just because he commonly builds tankier items such as spirit visage, thornmail, randuins, etc. So, taking those other three champs out of your misconstrued picture, that leaves orianna, syndra, and ryze for a total of 43 midlane mages in the top seven champs played mid. Wow, your argument debunked right there. What's more, ryze is clearly an outlier, and EVERY CLASS HAS OUTLIERS, even the weak classes. Ryze is and always has been an outlier due to riot not being able to get him worked out right. Sure, he's a mage, but unlike syndra and orianna, he's specifically a battle mage, and is super strong due to his dueling AND teamfight potential, early gave viability AND late game scaling. For all intents and purposes, he is a failure of a champ and is not indicative of the mage class whatsoever. That would be like calling tanks busted because of AP malph. Just please, people like you need to get more informed before you make these ridiculous kinds of posts.
Building AP (technically my initial claim was mage items, because support items have AP sometimes and they're different) and doing predominantly magic damage absolutely does make them a mage. There are several categories of mages. Control mage, AP assassin or burst mage, AP bruiser or tanky mage, battle mage, etc. As for your claim about darius being a tank because he builds tank items...that's ridiculous. It's just like how an AP bruiser can build tank items and not be a tank. Of course he's a bruiser because he builds damage items. Akali is a burst mage. She builds Gunblade into mage items, and does magic damage. Burst mage. LB is a burst mage, same as above. Kayle is definitely a weird one...an outlier if you will. Really on the fence with her, and I'm not sure she'd properly fit into any class neatly. And, lastly. > That would be like calling tanks busted because of AP malph. You call me an idiot, and come up with this no-logic piece of drivel? Come on, dude. When he builds AP and does magic damage he becomes a burst mage, not a tank. What about this is difficult to comprehend?
Ahri Baka (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=ArtumisPrime,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oQefoXoH,comment-id=00020002000000000000000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2019-11-06T13:51:23.895+0000) > > Where are you getting Talon out of this? He does not build AP and does no magic damage. > > Katarina is though. Burst mage. Yes , because I expected you to say Katarina is , hashinshin followers , Hashinshin banned me from his chat for saying " Talon is not a mage " , he also banned a guy who said " Katarina is not a mage " .
I really don't give two shits what Hashinshin thinks. Just using simple logic here. Building AP + mostly magic damage in kit = mage. Like, even Singed. AP bruiser, also could be called a tanky mage.
: "Vlad and Leblanc arent mages" {{sticker:zombie-brand-mindblown}}
RIght? It takes some kinda dense walnut to logic out that one.
: Thank you. God forbid mages stop circlejerking that their class is weak.
Ahri Baka (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=ArtumisPrime,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oQefoXoH,comment-id=000200020000000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2019-11-06T13:24:49.775+0000) > > No. If you build AP and do a significant portion of MAGIC damage then you are a MAGE. Get it? Mage -> magic damage. And so you don't say "Corki does magic damage" that's why I'm saying both AP itemization, and magic damage together = mage. > > Ekko is a burst mage, control mage, or AP bruiser > Diana is a burst mage or an AP bruiser > Elise is usually a burst mage, but she's kind of a weird case > Malphite building AP is a burst mage > Maokai building AP is a burst or control mage. > > See how this works? > > EDIT: The only case of those where I'm really on the fence is Kayle. She's kind of a weird one. > > EDIT 2: Magic damage as a majority of the kit, I should clarify. So like, Garen's ult does not classify him as a mage even if he builds AP. Also the magic damage from Nashor's Tooth and Lich Bane doesn't turn someone into a mage. Yea , Katarina is also a mage , Talon too xD LOOOOL ,you made my day.
Where are you getting Talon out of this? He does not build AP and does no magic damage. Katarina is though. Burst mage.
Ahri Baka (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=ArtumisPrime,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oQefoXoH,comment-id=0002000200000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-06T12:45:30.299+0000) > > LB is a burst. mage. Otherwise known as an AP assassin. > > Vlad is absolutely a mage. Look at his current item build. If he were building AP/bruiser he'd still be a mage. The only way I would consider him not a mage is if he were going full tank. > > Let me put it to you another way. > > If we take Ezreal, and build him AD, then he's an ADC. If we take him mid lane and build AP on him, then he's a mage. If they build mostly mage items, then they're a mage. I really don't see what's so difficult about this. No , according to that logic everything that builds AP is a mage? No , going by that Logic is also means Ekko , Elise and Diana are mages too?
No. If you build AP and do a significant portion of MAGIC damage then you are a MAGE. Get it? Mage -> magic damage. And so you don't say "Corki does magic damage" that's why I'm saying both AP itemization, and magic damage together = mage. Ekko is a burst mage, control mage, or AP bruiser Diana is a burst mage or an AP bruiser Elise is usually a burst mage, but she's kind of a weird case Malphite building AP is a burst mage Maokai building AP is a burst or control mage. See how this works? EDIT: The only case of those where I'm really on the fence is Kayle. She's kind of a weird one. EDIT 2: Magic damage as a majority of the kit, I should clarify. So like, Garen's ult does not classify him as a mage even if he builds AP. Also the magic damage from Nashor's Tooth and Lich Bane doesn't turn someone into a mage.
Ahri Baka (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=ArtumisPrime,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oQefoXoH,comment-id=00020002000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-06T12:11:06.793+0000) > > LB is a burst mage, so yes. I considered her a mage. She builds Gunblade into mage items. > > Vlad is also definitely a mage. He builds mage items. Protobelt, Deathcap, Spellbinder, etc. > > He specifically said, and I quote LB is an assassin and should not be counted as a mage . she has dash ( with it's second active ) with her basic abilities and her Ult which is a second W that has a really low CD compared to other champions. Vlad is a mage by class , but he doesn't have the same treatment as a mage , he doesn't use mana , sure you can treat him as a mage , but he is not the kind of mages we are talking about when we mention mages , he doesn't even have the same boring build path , this champion is broken by nature. You did quote with false info counting LB as a mage , and he didn't only specify pro play.
LB is a burst. mage. Otherwise known as an AP assassin. Vlad is absolutely a mage. Look at his current item build. If he were building AP/bruiser he'd still be a mage. The only way I would consider him not a mage is if he were going full tank. Let me put it to you another way. If we take Ezreal, and build him AD, then he's an ADC. If we take him mid lane and build AP on him, then he's a mage. If they build mostly mage items (EDIT as per post below: AND if they have a majority of magic damage in their kit), then they're a mage. I really don't see what's so difficult about this.
: You realize that's in Urf specifically and on under tuned champions right? I don't hear you complaining about karthus base health decrease and 15% damage reduction on him.
Of course I realize that's in URF specifically, thus "URF balance changes" in the title. It really doesn't make much sense to me that they would use such astronomical numbers. Aatrox rocks around 2-3 shotting people with AAs alone. He is one of the strongest picks in the game mode now, because he has stupidly high number adjustments. Yes, some champions need buffs, and some need nerfs. My complaint, specifically, is the huge numbers they're using. Tone that shit down a little.
Ahri Baka (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=ArtumisPrime,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oQefoXoH,comment-id=000200020000,timestamp=2019-11-06T06:56:09.230+0000) > > Let's put this theory to the test. > > The most picked mid laners at worlds are, in order: > {{champion:13}} 24 games > {{champion:84}} 12 games > {{champion:134}} 11 games > {{champion:10}} 10 games > {{champion:7}} 10 games > {{champion:61}} 8 games > {{champion:246}} 7 games > > This means that of 148 mid lane champion picks, 75 of them, or 50.68%, are mages, and that's from only the top 6. > > In total, in the mid lane, 99 mages have been picked (excluding things like TF who generally built full AD), or 66.89% > > Jungle has Gragas building full AP, and Elise, as 2 of the 3 most picked champions in the role. 43.24% mages via 64 picks. > > Top lane has seen 40 mages, or 27.02% > > Support and ADC have the lowest mage representation, and even they both are above 0, at around 9% each. > > Source: https://gol.gg/tournament/tournament-stats/World%20Championship%202019/ Who? Your stats are false. Don't tell me you counted LB as a mage? And you ignored his point , he didn't only talk about Worlds. He talked in SR mostly and he is right. Mages and Tanks are the two least popular roles right now. The most popular mage right now is Morgana , a support that isn't very strong but exists for this bot lane meta with 11% pick rate. Ahri ( who is hybrid and exists to fit such a snowbally meta ) who only has 9% pick rate. Do you know what that means? Go check other classes and their pick rates. - Support: Leona , Naut and Blitz , 16 to 17% pick rate for each champion. Thresh : 28% PR. - Adc Ashe: 25% PR Kai'sa : 43% PR Ezreal : 21.5% PR Lucian : 20% PR - Jungle Lee Sin : 35% PR Elise : 14%+ PR Ekko : 13% - Mid Yasuo : 11% PR with a huge ban rate. Zed 7.8% PR with a huge ban rate. - Top : Kayle : 15% PR PS : Vlad is not a mage, Vlad is not a mage , Vlad is not a mage EDIT : Never mind , this guy believes LB is a mage , and Akali too , not only that , but he also believes Katarina is a mage.
LB is a burst mage, so yes. I considered her a mage. She builds Gunblade into mage items. Vlad is also definitely a mage. He builds mage items. Protobelt, Deathcap, Spellbinder, etc. He specifically said, and I quote > have you been watching worlds? the number of non mages mid is insane.
: It's not "untrue" but it's not "True" either. It's pure speculation and prejudiced thoughts about an entire region of players. How is blaming an entire section of the playerbase have anything to do with discussing the state of the game? So you can blame them more for it? God forbid the state of the game be because people everywhere complained that games were too long, and then the game time was lowered. But that's as much speculation with as much founding as "Asian computer pcs are to blame!"
There is, in my opinion, a definite connection between the state of the game and the Chinese player base's desires. That being said, I do not have solid facts (and am physically unable to obtain proof of this, can only ever be conjecture) to make a claim one way or the other. However, to simply turn a blind eye towards the possibility of it simply because you don't agree with it, is just ignorant. It definitely could be that players were complaining about game length (I was not one of them) and tanks and such. It really is a possibility.....however, on the reverse side of that, now that we have droves of individuals complaining that games are TOO fast and damage is too high, the complaints fall on deaf ears. Because of this, it seems far more likely that the larger profit center has a more impactful voice on this topic. That is why blaming a player base for the state of the game is completely feasible. There's always the chance any one of us could be wrong about any number of things...but the logic is definitely there. And, to be completely honest, I think you're taking the piss out of people claiming it's China's fault just to go against the grain. I could be wrong about that too.
TyRamos (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Dadnekton,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oQefoXoH,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-11-06T02:23:27.384+0000) > > Mages don't need any new items for fuck sake. Mages have the most variety in the game by far, and the most op items BY FAR. The mage items available are so fucking cheap, and have more utility than any other class's items in the entire game, with better stats for fuck sake. Like it is INSANE that people don't see this. You've been watching Hash too much, mages and tanks are the two least popular classes right now, have you been watching worlds? the number of non mages mid is insane.
Let's put this theory to the test. The most picked mid laners at worlds are, in order: {{champion:13}} 24 games {{champion:84}} 12 games {{champion:134}} 11 games {{champion:10}} 10 games {{champion:7}} 10 games {{champion:61}} 8 games {{champion:246}} 7 games This means that of 148 mid lane champion picks, 75 of them, or 50.68%, are mages, and that's from only the top 6. In total, in the mid lane, 99 mages have been picked (excluding things like TF who generally built full AD), or 66.89% Jungle has Gragas building full AP, and Elise, as 2 of the 3 most picked champions in the role. 43.24% mages via 64 picks. Top lane has seen 40 mages, or 27.02% Support and ADC have the lowest mage representation, and even they both are above 0, at around 9% each. Source: https://gol.gg/tournament/tournament-stats/World%20Championship%202019/
: There are two problems. 1st, runes. All runes pretty much add damage. Even defensive runes are something like "prevent some damage and deal some damage" like Grasp. We should have pure defensive runes too. 2nd, defensive items suck. Items like Dead man's plate and Sunfire have been nerfed to oblivion. Everyone buys stuff like stopwatch instead, because stasis helps much more than overpriced tank stats. I don't see anyone building e.g. Randuins anymore, because the cost-effectiveness is just crap. Pretty much all defensive items should have their stats increased by 10-20%.
There are like 6 problems. * Runes reforged * Defensive items being nerfed/removed * Offensive items being buffed/added * Previously completely defensive items having offense added to them, and in a lot of cases, the defenses nerfed * Champion kits constantly having their damage buffed when they are weak, and their utility/defenses nerfed when they are strong...even champions who should have lowered damage and maintain their utility, like Yuumi and Pyke * Gold generation being increased exacerbates all of these problems. Early game power spikes happen much earlier in the game than they used to
: Abusive government? Hell yeah, blame away. Blaming an entire population of players because folk just don't the current state of League? That's just whiny blame throwing.
It's not necessarily untrue though. Games that are incredibly quick paced with super high damage, and low TTKs are extremely popular in the internet cafe culture of China. China also has the largest player base, and is likely where LoL makes the majority of its revenue. These things cannot be overlooked, or just ignored when discussing the state of the game.
Comentários de Rioters
SiG DxD (EUNE)
: because he gets extra ...around 20% damage for just playing him on urf
It's actually far more significant than this. He gets a 20% damage buff straight up. Then his passive gets more damage from the double attack speed. Then his passive gets more damage from the 25% crit damage bonus. In reality he does nearly double damage compared to where he's at normally.
: Well as expected: - First 12 hours URF were really fun. Won't deny. - 1 day later and you're no longer allowed to have with fun with anything but OP picks. - Now you get flamed for not playing OP, for not building OP, for loosing a lane. This community is the most insane pile of trash I've ever seen. But I really cannot call this a newsflash.
I had a friend join me for his first ever game of URF. He's barely played any League in years, because y'know...it's shit now. Managed to talk him into joining me for URF. We go against a cancer lane of Veigar/Morg. Ridiculous CC, can't CC them in return because of Black Shield, etc. Was not a good time. Friend ends up going 0/15, because he hasn't played the game in a while and it was his first URF. Malphite on my team was flaming him for like 10 mins. Saying he should just AFK and shit. (Meanwhile Malphite was missing ults, but that's beside the point) It's a game mode that is meant to be for fun. It is not ranked. It is not competitive. It is a silly mode, made to be fun. And this toxic ass community ruins it. My friend probably won't be coming back again after that experience. Fuck I hate people.
: > [{quoted}](name=MorganFreemanBot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5WNt42P1,comment-id=00000003,timestamp=2019-11-02T22:12:06.344+0000) > > There shouldn't be any. > > Qiyana's ulti would be extremely strong with just the knock back + damage component, as it's still an immense nuke with a gigantic range that displaces numerous people and can afflict a positively massive zone depending on where you use it. > > Having a hard stun ONTOP of all of that is nuts. There's a reason she's pick / ban in the pro scene. lol pick/ban. Check the latest worlds finals and she barely shows up. She has abysmal waveclear, which cripples her lane prio, and she falls off hard like Katarina and Talon. Her whole kits revolves around the environment, so don't be damn next to a wall with a Qiyana in game, same as you wouldn't with a Poppy or Vayne. I can't believe people are still whining about assassins when worlds has been nothing but mages and adc's in mid lane.
> lol pick/ban. Check the latest worlds finals and she barely shows up. I am honestly floored by just how wrong you are here. Since the bracket stage start, she has a 100% pick/ban presence. Source: https://lol.gamepedia.com/2019_Season_World_Championship/Main_Event/Picks_and_Bans/Bracket_Stage She also has a 91.4% pick/ban presence in the entire tournament. Source: https://gol.gg/champion/champion-stats/145/season-ALL/split-ALL/tournament-World%20Championship%202019/patch-ALL/role-ALL/league-ALL/ You. Are. So. SO. Wrong.
Keiaga (NA)
: Why necro a 2 month old thread? Or did it take that long for you to get that information?
TIL 27 days is 2 months. TBH though, I didn't even see this was an old post. Point remains, regardless....and your petty insult does not detract from your wrongness.
: Wrong, because their %HP damage is static across all targets, and the base damage is relatively more impactful vs squishy targets. How does everything you manage to say end up being so incredibly wrong? The only reason tanks are easier targets is because they have less damage to fight back.
I love this post so much.
Keiaga (NA)
: In that case let's look at Fiora's counters. https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/counters/fiora/diamond Her top 5 hardest counters are {{champion:74}} {{champion:133}} {{champion:10}} {{champion:80}} {{champion:17}} . All of which build almost no defensive items Her top 5 easiest match ups are {{champion:517}} {{champion:31}} {{champion:68}} {{champion:39}} {{champion:266}} 3 of which build tanky, 2 of which build mixed. Can't say much about vayne since supports have such a big impact on botlane matchups, but from this we can assume that Fiora, whose main strength is in her %True HP damage, is much less effective against champions who build pure offense. So the counter to fighting against %True Damage, is literally just "Don't build defensively"
Wat. Cho builds tanky. Aatrox and Irelia build mixed/bruiser. Sylas and Rumble build pure damage.
: > [{quoted}](name=ArtumisPrime,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=02b8fpIs,comment-id=0001000100000000000100000000000000010000,timestamp=2019-10-28T04:10:55.292+0000) > >Not sure why it still has Sunfire and IBG listed as the two most purchased items. You go through and list all of these tank items at 5% with absolute certainty that that is the case then you come across Malphite building IBG and Sunfire and dismiss it as being inaccurate even though it is from the same source?
With Malphite's recent changes I suspect it's still calculating tank items based on picks prior to that, which will take some time to adjust. You're not wrong though, and I definitely thought about that as I was typing it. If his recent history was even remotely close to those figures, I would have accepted it. Maybe those two items ARE his most purchased, but with that one, singular case...I'm skeptical.
Subdue (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=ArtumisPrime,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=02b8fpIs,comment-id=000100010000000000010000000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-28T04:29:07.119+0000) > > And again, I must reiterate. It's because damage items are stronger, and defensive items are now niche purchases for the vast majority of the roster. > > You will always be against some sort of physical/magic damage composition. 100% of the time there will be a champion who is either going to have their damage reduced by armor or magic resist. The story is much different when you look at the completion rates of tank items. > > In the current state of the game, defensive items are straight up weaker than their offensive counterparts. This is why you see every champion build at least 1 damage item (usually it's 3-4+). > > Of the top 20 most picked champions-- > > Supports have 4 tanks (not counting Blitz and Thresh because they build way more utility than tank, as opposed to something like a Leona or Ali.) > > Top lane has 2 tanks. > > Mid lane has none unless you count Vlad, who is not even building Spirit Visage these days. Let that sink in for a moment. VLADIMIR is not building Spirit Visage in a lane against primarily AP champions. > > ADC has none. > > Going by pick rates, this means that in the absolute, largest bulk of all games, you will see a tank, as a support...in maybe 1 out of 3 games, 1/2 at most. And in the top lane maybe 1 out of 25 games. The champions you DO see, outside of support, do not build defensive items until after 3-4 damage items...which is where games end most of the time. This is a systemic problem which is intrinsic based on the state of the game itself. Tank items are garbage. Otherwise we would see more tanks. Offensive itemization has to outscale defensive itemization, otherwise the ideal strategy for both teams would be to build unkillable tanks for 2 hour long games. This is by design. Also, like I said... what 6 posts ago now, defensive itemization is reactive. Unless a champion scales with some defensive stat, it is typically a bad idea to build a defensive item before offensive items because you don't know who on the enemy team is going to pop off. Furthermore, if no one on the enemy team pops off, it may not be necessary to build a defensive item at all. Unlike damage items which always add value, defensive items eventually reach a point where they do not. If you're a tank and you're walking away from fights at 60% HP as opposed to 40% HP, that's 20% defensive itemization that you didn't need. Your reaction is not to build more of it. On the other hand offensive itemization always adds value for both engages and for securing objectives.
Firstly, damage does not HAVE to outscale defenses. This wasn't the case back in S2, 3, 4...not sure entirely when it was changed, TBH. Somewhere between S5 and 6, I believe. Game time averages were around 40-45 mins. Not the 2 hour hyperbole you're referring to. And, honestly, I feel that damage not only outscaling defenses, but being outright better at all stages of the game is one of the massive problems with this iteration of LoL, but that's another argument entirely. As for how many games didn't have a tank at worlds...it's a larger number than I would imagine you suspect. https://lol.gamepedia.com/2019_Season_World_Championship/Play-In/Pick-Ban_History https://lol.gamepedia.com/2019_Season_World_Championship/Main_Event/Pick-Ban_History I'm not going to go through and count each one, but have a look for yourself.
Subdue (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=ArtumisPrime,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=02b8fpIs,comment-id=0001000100000000000100000000000000010000,timestamp=2019-10-28T04:10:55.292+0000) > > The same Malphite who's building full AP most of the time now? Not sure why it still has Sunfire and IBG listed as the two most purchased items. If you look at the recent games, that's not even remotely true. probuilds.net says otherwise as well (they have his top two as Runic Echo's and Morello) > > The same Yorick who builds Triforce 95% of the time, Sterak's, 59% of the time, and then his next highest is Spirit Visage at 10%? Admittedly, Yorick does build a few....but my contention is that with items ending at 2-3 items, tank items are almost never built because they are weaker than their damage counterparts. > > Or Illaoi who's in a similar boat to Yorick, except her highest defensive item is Spirit Visage at 18% then Randuin's at 3%? > > Yes, Mundo is a tank. He is not, however, picked for his tankiness. He is picked because he can survive some burst and dish out equally as much. Similar to season 6 tanks who were immortal nuclear cannons. We've come full circle now, so I'll refer you to my first post which explains WHY damage items are built first.
And again, I must reiterate. It's because damage items are stronger, and defensive items are now niche purchases for the vast majority of the roster. You will always be against some sort of physical/magic damage composition. 100% of the time there will be a champion who is either going to have their damage reduced by armor or magic resist. The story is much different when you look at the completion rates of tank items. In the current state of the game, defensive items are straight up weaker than their offensive counterparts. This is why you see every champion build at least 1 damage item (usually it's 3-4+). Of the top 20 most picked champions-- Supports have 4 tanks (not counting Blitz and Thresh because they build way more utility than tank, as opposed to something like a Leona or Ali.) Top lane has 2 tanks. Mid lane has none unless you count Vlad, who is not even building Spirit Visage these days. Let that sink in for a moment. VLADIMIR is not building Spirit Visage in a lane against primarily AP champions. ADC has none. Going by pick rates, this means that in the absolute, largest bulk of all games, you will see a tank, as a support...in maybe 1 out of 3 games, 1/2 at most. And in the top lane maybe 1 out of 25 games. The champions you DO see, outside of support, do not build defensive items until after 3-4 damage items...which is where games end most of the time. This is a systemic problem which is intrinsic based on the state of the game itself. Tank items are garbage. Otherwise we would see more tanks.
Subdue (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=ArtumisPrime,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=02b8fpIs,comment-id=00010001000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-28T03:15:24.128+0000) > > That was not the argument in question. He said "the majority of top laners build tank items." Don't move the goal posts. > > EDIT: Also your BoRK argument is stupid. If the majority of top laners are playing carry champs and not building defensive items at all, then there is a problem with tank stats or items. NO supports build BoRK, there ARE however tank top laners and even bruisers are expected to build some defense (though not in the current meta, hey) > > EDIT 2: Oh, and. If tank items were better we would not see the top 20 have 2 tanks, who are picked at numbers 18 and 19, respectively. It is indicative of the state of the game to have tanks so underrepresented. They're not under-represented. The meta has shifted to prioritize champions that can split push and duel in top lane, and as such the role of tanks has shifted to supports. All the true-tank supports are in the top 10 most picked (4 of them taking up the first 4 slots) except for Alistar and Braum, who are 18 and 19 respectively. They're also present in the jungle, in the form of Jarvan, Nunu, Zac, and so on. That said, if you switch your filter on Top Lane from Pick Rate to Tier, which takes into account Ban Rates and Win Rates as well, you bring forward the likes of Malphite, Illaoi, Yorrick, and Mundo, who are absent from your list now.
The same Malphite who's building full AP most of the time now? Not sure why it still has Sunfire and IBG listed as the two most purchased items. If you look at the recent games, that's not even remotely true. probuilds.net says otherwise as well (they have his top two as Runic Echo's and Morello) The same Yorick who builds Triforce 95% of the time, Sterak's, 59% of the time, and then his next highest is Spirit Visage at 10%? Admittedly, Yorick does build a few....but my contention is that with items ending at 2-3 items, tank items are almost never built because they are weaker than their damage counterparts. Or Illaoi who's in a similar boat to Yorick, except her highest defensive item is Spirit Visage at 18% then Randuin's at 3%? Yes, Mundo is a tank. He is not, however, picked for his tankiness. He is picked because he can survive some burst and dish out equally as much. Similar to season 6 tanks who were immortal nuclear cannons.
Subdue (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=ArtumisPrime,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=02b8fpIs,comment-id=00010001000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-28T03:15:24.128+0000) > > That was not the argument in question. He said "the majority of top laners build tank items." Don't move the goal posts. > > EDIT: Also your BoRK argument is stupid. If the majority of top laners are playing carry champs and not building defensive items at all, then there is a problem with tank stats or items. NO supports build BoRK, there ARE however tank top laners and even bruisers are expected to build some defense (though not in the current meta, hey) Look at your list again. The tank top laners and bruiser top laners ARE building the tank items. You said so yourself. And in fact, if you look at other top laners that are tanks or bruisers, like Maokai, Ornn, Mundo, Yorrick, you find that they ARE building tank items. Also, the original post was about tank items in general, not tank items in top lane, and certainly not tank items in top lane on non-tank champions. I didn't realize that one of you decided to arbitrarily change the premise from the original post.
The comment I replied to said "The majority of top laners build tank items" and my reply was "The majority of top laners do NOT build tank items" which is where this particular comment chain originated. Also read my 2nd edit on that post in regards to your second reply. (And bruisers building tank items 1 out of 20 games is not them building tank items. That's them building an item in extremely niche scenarios.)
Subdue (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=ArtumisPrime,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=02b8fpIs,comment-id=000100010000000000010000,timestamp=2019-10-28T01:47:42.135+0000) > > Yes, of course that's not the 6th item he buys. If it has a 5% completion rate that means he buys it 1 out of 20 games. You understand this, right? > > The fact that 18 out of the 20 champions in that top 20 most picked list build a defensive item in less than 1 out of 20 games absolutely means the items are ineffective in the majority of situations, as a first-to-third item. > > If someone were building Spirit Visage as high as 25% of the time and Sunfire Cape 25% of the time, you would have an argument. The fact that, again, for 18 out of those 20 champions, the first defensive item on the top 8 list is less than 5% means a great deal. What percentage of junglers are building tank items? What percentage of supports? You're looking at a list comprised primarily of carry champions and arguing that it's indicative of the ineffectiveness of tank items. If I pulled a list of the top 20 picked supports and showed that none of them are building Blade of the Ruined King, would that be a good argument for how ineffective Blade of the Ruined King is? That they spill over at all is a testament to how effective they are. When is the last time you saw Vayne with a Randuins?
That was not the argument in question. He said "the majority of top laners build tank items." Don't move the goal posts. EDIT: Also your BoRK argument is stupid. If the majority of top laners are playing carry champs and not building defensive items at all, then there is a problem with tank stats or items. NO supports build BoRK, there ARE however tank top laners and even bruisers are expected to build some defense (though not in the current meta, hey) EDIT 2: Oh, and. If tank items were better we would not see the top 20 have 2 tanks, who are picked at numbers 18 and 19, respectively. It is indicative of the state of the game to have tanks so underrepresented.
: > [{quoted}](name=ArtumisPrime,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Q6xZbwTK,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-10-28T02:19:06.222+0000) > > I really don't even consider this an event. The rewards are ok, maybe even good, locked behind the same exact quest system we've had for months now. There are some flashy animations are first spawn on the rift, and some splash art changes? > > That's pretty boring and simple IMO. i mean i feel like the reward system works better than the say "worlds pass" stuff If the rewards from this got a odyssey extract event it would probably be the best
Yeah. If there were some kind of map designed for this, then I would call it an event. Absolutely.
: This is how events should be like
I really don't even consider this an event. The rewards are ok, maybe even good, locked behind the same exact quest system we've had for months now. There are some flashy animations are first spawn on the rift, and some splash art changes? That's pretty boring and simple IMO.
: Tbh if you are in long enough game where you can get the elder dragon to spawn when those pre-season choices go live then you are doing something wrong lol especially in this fast pace meta.
: > [{quoted}](name=ArtumisPrime,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZYG6r8LL,comment-id=00000001000000000000,timestamp=2019-10-28T01:48:56.176+0000) > > Good luck preaching that to solo queue ADCs. Don't worry once them ADC's see their melee-tank supports not in base half of the time (exception pyke) they'll understand. Ofc they will still cry about their CS but... This strat if viable will be so broken cant wait to see all the thresh, Leona, blitz, naut, taric, braum and alistar making the plays.
One small nitpick. Thresh is considered ranged for the purposes of Grasp, Sterak's, Titanic, and Relic shield. He likely won't get the benefit of the Doran's changes. I highly doubt solo queue ADCs would be willing to share CS with their support even for this reason. It's far more likely that "trash support" or "gg troll" will come out, after they bitch about the support taking their farm. It could be good in competitive play and high elos, but hey I don't see high elo ADCs bitch about this kinda stuff currently most of the time. That being said, if your strategy is a possibility (which I really think it is...though I think it more probable to be Doran's after tier 1 gold gen item) it's a potential to see ADC + melee kill support. Like Pantheon, Xin, etc, might actually be viable. Especially with the experience changes coming. Killing enemy bot lane, and roaming to allow your ADC extra experience and gold...it really could be very strong.
: > [{quoted}](name=ArtumisPrime,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZYG6r8LL,comment-id=000000010000,timestamp=2019-10-27T11:56:16.308+0000) > > I think this is a tricky situation. If you buff Doran's shield to make melee too good vs ranged, then melee will start to take over bot lane as well (and it's not like we haven't seen any of that already.) > > Whereas this is a real and fairly significant problem in the top lane, it has to be just enough to affect top lane, while not so much that it also affects bot lane. Kind of a razor's edge here. With the recent SUP items nerfs, tanky supports like Braum, Blitz, and Leona might start to take Doran's shield as a starting item, and share CS with their ADC until they get enough for a real SUP ward item. And the lost CS to both might be compensated by their greater sustain and tankiness therefore; bettering their laning phase.
Good luck preaching that to solo queue ADCs.
Subdue (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=ArtumisPrime,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=02b8fpIs,comment-id=0001000100000000,timestamp=2019-10-27T15:39:09.237+0000) > > ---Snip--- The premise of your analysis is wrong. Purchase rate doesn't tell nearly the whole story. Players will always build their damage items because they always benefit from increased damage. However, they won't always build defensive items because there isn't always a strong source of that damage. Take Garen for example. Spirit Visage may be the 6th item on your list, but that doesn't mean it's the 6th item he buys. If the enemy is overwhelmingly AP, or if an AP character on the enemy gets fed early, the Spirit Visage is going to be his 2nd or 3rd item. On the otherhand, if there are no AP champions at all on the enemy team, he'll never build the Spirit Visage at all. In fact he'll probably have a Thornmail, which isn't even on your list now. This doesn't mean that defensive items are ineffective. It merely shows that unlike damage items, defensive items can't be automatic buys and must be reactive relative to the enemy.
Yes, of course that's not the 6th item he buys. If it has a 5% completion rate that means he buys it 1 out of 20 games. You understand this, right? The fact that 18 out of the 20 champions in that top 20 most picked list build a defensive item in less than 1 out of 20 games absolutely means the items are ineffective in the majority of situations, as a first-to-third item. If someone were building Spirit Visage as high as 25% of the time and Sunfire Cape 25% of the time, you would have an argument. The fact that, again, for 18 out of those 20 champions, the first defensive item on the top 8 list is less than 5% means a great deal.
: > [{quoted}](name=ArtumisPrime,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=02b8fpIs,comment-id=000100000000000200000000,timestamp=2019-10-27T15:05:32.904+0000) > > Average game times only crest 30 mins in bronze, silver, and gold (and that's excluding surrenders) > > https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/rankings/game-durations > > I'll get to your proof on the other comment now. Will take a few mins. That still makes the average game time 30 mins since the majority of people are in low elo. Like again by the time 30 mins hits you're building your 4th item if not you're a support or losing really bad. Maybe if you played you would know that.
CS numbers would also be garbage at those elos. As such, I doubt low elo people are hitting their 4th item at 30 minutes. I mean, you're barely getting past your 4th (4.5 items-ish) item with perfect CS at 30 mins. And, sure. The majority of the playerbase is Silver/Gold, but the average game time is still lower than 30 minutes (if only just) even there if you include surrenders.
: > [{quoted}](name=ArtumisPrime,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=02b8fpIs,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2019-10-27T09:53:12.332+0000) > > The majority of top laners do NOT build tank items. Wow no proof. It's almost like you have none.
Okay. I've given up providing proof to people who don't ask for it because the majority of boards users ignore it anyway, so it's not worth my time. Since you asked for it, here you go. The top 20 most picked top laners in Plat+ are, in order {{champion:86}} {{champion:10}} {{champion:122}} {{champion:114}} {{champion:58}} {{champion:92}} {{champion:82}} {{champion:24}} {{champion:41}} {{champion:8}} {{champion:39}} {{champion:266}} {{champion:84}} {{champion:17}} {{champion:13}} {{champion:80}} {{champion:164}} {{champion:98}} {{champion:75}} {{champion:23}} Source: https://u.gg/lol/tier-list?role=top Now, if we look at each individual champion's item purchases and do not factor hybrid damage/defensive items (except Sterak's. We'll count Sterak's as a pseudo tank item for now.) 7, or 35%, build pure damage {{champion:17}} https://u.gg/lol/champions/teemo/pro-build {{champion:82}} https://u.gg/lol/champions/mordekaiser/pro-build {{champion:8}} https://u.gg/lol/champions/vladimir/pro-build {{champion:84}} https://u.gg/lol/champions/akali/pro-build {{champion:13}} https://u.gg/lol/champions/ryze/pro-build {{champion:23}} https://u.gg/lol/champions/tryndamere/pro-build {{champion:10}} https://u.gg/lol/champions/kayle/pro-build Of the remaining 13 champions, 5, or 25%, build only Sterak's as a "tank" item. {{champion:92}} https://u.gg/lol/champions/riven/pro-build {{champion:41}} https://u.gg/lol/champions/gangplank/pro-build {{champion:164}} https://u.gg/lol/champions/camille/pro-build {{champion:80}} https://u.gg/lol/champions/pantheon/pro-build {{champion:114}} https://u.gg/lol/champions/fiora/pro-build Still no proper tank items at all in this list. That's 12, 60%, without a single REAL tank item. Of the remaining on that list, there are some who do build actual tank items....but at incredibly low rates. {{champion:58}} builds {{item:3143}} {{item:3194}} both at 3% completion rate, and full damage/hybrids otherwise. https://u.gg/lol/champions/renekton/pro-build {{champion:24}} builds {{item:3194}} at 4% completion rate, and full damage/hybrids otherwise. https://u.gg/lol/champions/jax/pro-build {{champion:39}} builds {{item:3194}} at 2% completion rate, and full damage/hybrids otherwise. https://u.gg/lol/champions/irelia/pro-build {{champion:266}} builds {{item:3065}} at 4% completion rate, and full damage/hybrids otherwise. https://u.gg/lol/champions/aatrox/pro-build That's 4 champions who build tank items, but with a completion rate lower than 5%. This brings our total up to 16/20. 80% of the top 20 build tank items less than 5% of the time.... The remaining 4 are {{champion:86}} {{champion:122}} {{champion:98}} {{champion:75}} Garen's top 8 items are, in order, {{item:3071}} {{item:3401}} {{item:3742}} {{item:3078}} {{item:3053}} {{item:3065}} {{item:3046}} {{item:3142}} He builds TWO defensive items. Deadman's at 43%, Spirit Visage at 12%. Otherwise, pure. fucking. damage. As above, but for Darius, in order, {{item:3078}} {{item:3053}} {{item:3071}} {{item:3742}} {{item:3026}} {{item:3065}} {{item:3800}} {{item:3046}} Three defensive items. The same two as Garen, both at lower rates (13% Deadman's, 8% Spirit Visage) and Righteous Glory, 5%. The other two, Shen and Nasus, do build pretty much full tank. 1 damage item, maybe two. But can you really say that 2/20 is "most top laners building full tank"? And yes, this is the majority of top laners. There are 41 champions registered to have gone in the top lane on u.gg, and these comprise the absolute bulk of anything picked. EDIT: And don't come back with "hurr, the majority of players are in Silver and Gold so this is irrelevant" nonsense. No one cares who's building what at low elos. I could rock into Bronze with ADC Diana and shit on people. That doesn't mean it's viable or even remotely good.
: > [{quoted}](name=ArtumisPrime,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=02b8fpIs,comment-id=0001000000000002,timestamp=2019-10-27T10:40:07.330+0000) > > Most games END at 2 or 3 items. 30 mins is the average time I'm going to say no. Maybe 3 items but they'll start building the 4th and is doesn't change the fact they're still building tank items.
Average game times only crest 30 mins in bronze, silver, and gold (and that's excluding surrenders) https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/rankings/game-durations I'll get to your proof on the other comment now. Will take a few mins.
: > [{quoted}](name=Darkdemon653,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZYG6r8LL,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-10-26T19:42:37.794+0000) > > All they've done so far is change Shield regen from 30 to 40 for melee. could be big enough tho, altho it looks small it should have a noticeable effect, the real question is it going to be enough?
I think this is a tricky situation. If you buff Doran's shield to make melee too good vs ranged, then melee will start to take over bot lane as well (and it's not like we haven't seen any of that already.) Whereas this is a real and fairly significant problem in the top lane, it has to be just enough to affect top lane, while not so much that it also affects bot lane. Kind of a razor's edge here.
Pika Fox (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=ArtumisPrime,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0O4wj1eL,comment-id=0000000100000000,timestamp=2019-10-27T10:25:42.373+0000) > > Source? Original announcement post on the old forums before they were acquired.
Do you have a link regarding this? Because unless I read it for myself, I honestly will not believe it.
: So you clearly haven't been playing for seasons apparently. Like the last time Irelia was op this season there were so many post about her being able to go full tank. Like garen,darius and renekton all build 2 or 3 ad item then full tank. Actually most top laners do that. Fiora in some cases does that. Like go and actually play the game.
> Like garen,darius and renekton all build 2 or 3 ad item then full tank. Actually most top laners do that. Most games END at 2 or 3 items.
: they own majority *stake* in riot outside of china, meaning they have NO say in deciding what events, development, cosmetics, etc. basically they just rake in dough from the sidelines, they dont actually control a single thing riot decides to do.
Sure. They might not have a direct hand in the oversight of what happens within the walls at RIOT headquarters. However, if/when (no idea what RIOT has brought in recently) revenue starts to decrease, they absolutely have the ability to say "do x or we withdraw our money/dump shares."
Pika Fox (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Eedat,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0O4wj1eL,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2019-10-26T17:54:13.561+0000) > > Dude what? Tencent is the 100% owner of Riot. Anything Riot does is because they allow it They signed away all those rights before they were allowed to do so. They contractually only have control over china.
: Tank items are fine. The majority of top laners build them and lot of jgs too. Also ignoring the fact tanks have been op this season like nunu despite them ONLY being good with tank items. Go and play tanks since you clearly don't.
The majority of top laners do NOT build tank items.
: https://www.op.gg/champion/shaco/statistics/jungle looks fine to me.
I don't see a ban rate on that one. https://u.gg/lol/champions/shaco/build Looks less fine to me.
: HIs win rate is because they took the skill out of him and with this last nerf they did the opposite of what they should have done. Instead of nerfing the point and click E execute that they gave the biggest buff to they instead nerfed the aspect of shaco that takes skill in properly executing box placement and juggling. Bring back a 60 second box timer and reduce damage at level 1 for boxes and across the board for the E execute.
They nerfed the 60 second box timer because with the AoE he could place 4 boxes (which he can no longer do) at raptors, and have the boxes kill those raptors w/o his presence, while he got a leash at red, then went to krugs. He is then level 3 at 2 mins into the game, when the side lanes are having their second minion wave meet in the middle, and both side lanes are still level 1. This was a problem for bot lane because it takes 9 minions to hit level 2. Less so for top lane, because it takes 7 minions.
: > [{quoted}](name=Juice,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4B3aZTp6,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-10-25T16:43:51.484+0000) > > Season 5 was when it all went to shit. > > Season 4 was king. Wasnt Cinderhulk introduced in season 4? As well as current baron? And the first marksmen item update? I am fairly sure a jungle rework also happened.
First marksman update was preseason 6. Cinderhulk was season 5. Baron was patch 4.20, but that was preseason 5. Jungle reworks happen almost every season.
: > [{quoted}](name=we havent met,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1Ovh4L3A,comment-id=001a,timestamp=2019-10-24T20:29:40.297+0000) > > Classic boards circle jerk! > Asol literally has the highest win rate in mid lane 56.74% > The only matchup statistically that he is hard losing is against zed. > I swear to fucking god this is why people dont take boards seriously. They always cry for buffs when their champion is actually really good right now. No one is saying he's bad, he's just not fun anymore. OP you should've did a fair poll btw.
Personally, I think he's actually playable, and even fun, now. I totally get that people who enjoyed him before might be upset, and I'm always in the camp of not reworking a champ because there are people who enjoy it in its pre-rework state.
: > [{quoted}](name=boricCentaur1,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Qx2wIOJs,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-10-23T01:00:18.133+0000) > > Like idk why not revert the ult change that's all they had to do too. Like one pyke wasn't played as much before then and again aftershock is getting nerf for non tanks his main rune. > > Pyke is going to be shit. Riot as of lately has been putting a bandaid on a bullet wound, they usually buff a champion and when that champion becomes too strong instead of reverting the buff they nerf another aspect of the champion.
The absolute, number one, best example of this is Akali. They dodged around taking away her true stealth for so long that by the time they finally removed it she was in the dumpster as far as win rate is concerned.
: Double jungle?
I highly doubt it. The ADC/supp meta began because ADCs need items, whereas something like a mage scales hard in the early game off of levels. Giving an ADC more levels is going to have much less of an impact than an ADC who has a support next to them allowing them to farm. So, let's say one side double jungles and the other side has a standard bot lane. Even at a discrepancy of level 4 to 6, if the CS difference is in the ballpark of 30, the gold value between an ADC scaling from levels vs items will be completely negated. This could potentially work with an ADC who can farm safely from a range solo, like say Ezreal....but it's not going to be common practice. The situation is compounded even farther when you make the jungle ganks weaker by reducing their levels, making them take longer to get to level 6, and completely shaft the support by not allowing them to have a gold generation item effectively.
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