FURRY V2 (EUNE)
: Yeah, we have never seen an ability like this in the game before. {{champion:38}} {{champion:82}} (old) {{champion:80}} (close) {{champion:91}}
> [{quoted}](name=FURRY V2,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=yzYv6uNe,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-11-27T12:30:49.057+0000) > > Yeah, we have never seen an ability like this in the game before. > {{champion:38}} > {{champion:82}} (old) > {{champion:80}} (close) > {{champion:91}} What are you talking about? I had a rework idea for Grave's auto attack (not his abilities) for an ADC. Before Aphelios there was no champion or ADC that had an AA like that so it would've been pretty different for an ADC. And besides it doesn't even matter if it's never been seen before I never said that, my obvious point is something which I thought would've worked really good for a mini Graves rework to bring him back to bot lane is now being adopted essentially by a different ADC so that makes me happy because I feel like my idea for a Graves mini rework was pretty solid.
Comentários de Rioters
Comentários de Rioters
: > [{quoted}](name=Murr Wurr,realm=OCE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=wxNzmys0,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-11-16T14:17:47.232+0000) > > The delay doesn't have to be 1 second it could be 0.3 or 0.5 I doubt that would make him "garbage tier" > > And you think his grey health should be buffed? Why on Earth would you want to buff his greay health, wouldn't that just encourage tank Pyke? > > Wholeheartedly disagree, his scaling and execute damage is fine, buffing this would encourage lane Pyke which Riot doesn't like and I agree with Riot I don't like lane Pyke. Bruh first off As long as {{item:3077}} exists people will try to play pyke in solo lanes, no one LIKES solo lane pyke, not his team mates who don't have a good assassin, not his teammates who don't have a tank top, not the enemy who have to deal with a Pyke, but lane pyke was already super nerfed when they nerfed his Q Secondly no it wouldn't encourage tank pyke, they nerfed it post dumpstering tank Pyke. What would make tank Pyke good is if he could build health tank items and be played like an AD Vlad with aftershock and never die. But if he builds tank now he still dies because -they nerfed his late game health -He doesn't do damage without ad items nearly as much unless they give a huge amount of health such as {{item:3022}} (which has ad on it already and probably isn't gonna get picked on pyke) -With the aftershock changes next season it wouldn't benefit him nearly as much because hes not a leona hes closer to a Zed so taking aftershock will be less effective on him further discouraging tank Pyke In conclusion as long as they don't buff his HP>AD we shouldn't see a tank Pyke especially if they adjust his late game mana regen to be slightly higher so he doesn't try to go for {{item:3800}} or something. And giving him any wind up on his W would make him TOO easy to kill because of how slow he moves with it now. If it scaled off of ad instead of lethality again then MAYBE, because he would cover more ground afterwards while still giving a window of opportunity to kill him, however if it isn't changed in how it scaled people will just kill him outright because again tanky pyke is a thing of the past.
>Bruh first off As long as exists people will try to play pyke in solo lanes Bruh, It doesn't matter what people *will try* your proposed changed inheritley encourage that playstyle when Riot tried to kill it, so why go backwards? makes no sense. >Secondly no it wouldn't encourage tank pyke I think it could and even if it doesn't I think the last "problem" Pyke has is his grey health needs to be buffed, it's fine how it is. >And giving him any wind up on his W would make him TOO easy to kill because of how slow he moves with it now. If it scaled off of ad instead of lethality again First of all, no, scaling off of AD is aids and it's good they changed it, secondly if you truly think a 0.5 or 0.3 wind up would make him "garbage tier" and "TOO" easy to kill I just have to outright disagree, but it's fine if you think that but at the end of the day it's one of those things we can never truly know unelss we see it in game.
: Its already been reduced, and its not the thing that lets him get away with doing dumb things, his E is, he stuns you and can get far enough away to use W to do that, and no it shouldn't have a delay because that would make him garbage tier because its already been nerfed so much He needs his ults base execute range lowered, and scaling increased so he actually needs to get going to be able to get off more executes. His grey health should be buffed, and his ult shouldn't give him x2 gold
> [{quoted}](name=CaptainAntiHeroz,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=wxNzmys0,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-11-16T14:11:37.485+0000) > > Its already been reduced, and its not the thing that lets him get away with doing dumb things, his E is, he stuns you and can get far enough away to use W to do that, and no it shouldn't have a delay because that would make him garbage tier because its already been nerfed so much > > He needs his ults base execute range lowered, and scaling increased so he actually needs to get going to be able to get off more executes. His grey health should be buffed, and his ult shouldn't give him x2 gold The delay doesn't have to be 1 second it could be 0.3 or 0.5 I doubt that would make him "garbage tier" And you think his grey health should be buffed? Why on Earth would you want to buff his greay health, wouldn't that just encourage tank Pyke? >and scaling increased so he actually needs to get going to be able to get off more executes. Wholeheartedly disagree, his scaling and execute damage is fine, buffing this would encourage lane Pyke which Riot doesn't like and I agree with Riot I don't like lane Pyke.
Comentários de Rioters
: Idk how graves plays, new or old, but there are usually reasons they rework champs, so I doubt they'd wanna go back to something they thought needed to be reworked? Plus not only would it be like having to keep track of, and balance, two champs in one for Riot, but people trying to counter him in champ select wouldn't know which one they're dealing with. They'd have to give the player some way to know.
> [{quoted}](name=xox BaByDoLL xox,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=vdHiupdE,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-11-16T02:17:52.553+0000) >but people trying to counter him in champ select wouldn't know which one they're dealing with. They'd have to give the player some way to know. Why do you think so? nowadays if a team in pro play picks Gragas, Irelia and Renekton as thier first 3 picks they have no idea if Gragas is going jg, top or support, if Irelia is going top or mid or if Renekton is going top or mid. It's essentially the same as not knowing if Graves is going adc or jg.
: > [{quoted}](name=Murr Wurr,realm=OCE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=vdHiupdE,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-11-16T02:48:55.162+0000) > > You're commenting about something you have no idea about? that's wierd. > Yikes, chill. You're so defensive, but I put a question mark at the end of what I said for a reason! I was admitting I don't know anything about the character, but there is usually a reason they rework something. People are allowed to be interested in discussions around champs they're not familiar with.
> [{quoted}](name=xox BaByDoLL xox,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=vdHiupdE,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2019-11-16T02:56:59.033+0000) > > Yikes, chill. You're so defensive, but I put a question mark at the end of what I said for a reason! I was admitting I don't know anything about the character, but there is usually a reason they rework something. > > People are allowed to be interested in discussions around champs they're not familiar with. You're allowed to be interested but I guess it's wierd to say usually Riot has a good reason to rework a champion and not have any idea why they were reworked. I disagree with why they reworked him and I don't have a good reason. I don't mean to be offensive towards you though, I've just become accustomed to these boards being agressive as you can tell people instantly downvote you and think your opinon is the dumbest in the world so I've accostomed to be a bit hard around the edges. Usually people aren't interested in genuine discussion on here, they just share thier 2 cents no matter if it's well thought out or not, downvote and move on.
: > [{quoted}](name=Murr Wurr,realm=OCE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=vdHiupdE,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-11-16T01:34:59.011+0000) > > Although I wholeheartedly disageee, you don't have to understand the love for old Graves because with this change you can only play the JG augment. > > Like I said in my post the only *real* changes to Graves was his Q and AA so it's very phesable even from a lore perspective that Graves would have a short range option and a long range option with his gun since till this day even though he has a shotgun the model of his weapon has a canister for multiple bullets. I played the old graves, so I dont know what you are getting at. I personally prefer the new graves, because he is unique and different; something the old one wasn't. Once Lucian was out, it was just whichever one of those were the strongest is the one you played because they were incredibly similar; too similar. So the older champion, Graves, got reworked into something new.
> [{quoted}](name=DestructoDave,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=vdHiupdE,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-16T02:56:25.512+0000) > > I played the old graves, so I dont know what you are getting at. I personally prefer the new graves, because he is unique and different; something the old one wasn't. Once Lucian was out, it was just whichever one of those were the strongest is the one you played because they were incredibly similar; too similar. So the older champion, Graves, got reworked into something new. I also played old Graves and I still disagree. You're just repeating yourself, I get that you don't care for old Graves but like I said with this change **you don't have to care** you still have your new Graves all the other players that want old Graves back get thier old champion back.
: Idk how graves plays, new or old, but there are usually reasons they rework champs, so I doubt they'd wanna go back to something they thought needed to be reworked? Plus not only would it be like having to keep track of, and balance, two champs in one for Riot, but people trying to counter him in champ select wouldn't know which one they're dealing with. They'd have to give the player some way to know.
> [{quoted}](name=xox BaByDoLL xox,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=vdHiupdE,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-11-16T02:17:52.553+0000) > > Idk how graves plays, new or old, but there are usually reasons they rework champs, so I doubt they'd wanna go back to something they thought needed to be reworked? > > Plus not only would it be like having to keep track of, and balance, two champs in one for Riot, but people trying to counter him in champ select wouldn't know which one they're dealing with. They'd have to give the player some way to know. You're commenting about something you have no idea about? that's wierd. Like I said the only difference is his AA and Q that's really it, so it's not like 2 champions at all. Also he didn't need a rework like other champions they only reworked him because they released Lucian after Graves had been out for years and people thought Lucian was a better Graves even though Graves existed first. They wanted to make Graves more unique so they changed his AA and Q, to this day so many players want old Graves back, in case you didn't happen to read it Riot Meddler even mentioned it in his gameplay thought released today that there's a split between old and new Graves players and how they don't want to create a split like that every again in the future. But because old Graves is still missed greatly and only 1 ability and his Auto Attack were changed my idea makes a lot of sense. In fact this isn't really 'my' idea, it's a very common one in the LoL community.
: Old graves was just Lucian 1.0. New graves is fun and different. I really dont understand this love for the old graves.
> [{quoted}](name=DestructoDave,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=vdHiupdE,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-11-16T01:32:14.560+0000) > > Old graves was just Lucian 1.0. > > New graves is fun and different. I really dont understand this love for the old graves. Although I wholeheartedly disageee, you don't have to understand the love for old Graves because with this change you can only play the JG augment. Like I said in my post the only *real* changes to Graves was his Q and AA so it's very phesable even from a lore perspective that Graves would have a short range option and a long range option with his gun since till this day even though he has a shotgun the model of his weapon has a canister for multiple bullets.
Comentários de Rioters
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: November 15
It's nice to get some confirmation on your thoughts on some polarizing champion reworks. I'm in the camp that misses old Graves and am honestly still confused why he was reworked so drastically considering he existed before Lucian and he didn't *need* such major changes. But, I don't want to get into that, I want to know if there's any plans to possibly bring him back to bot lane? I don't think he even needs to be reverted to accomplish it which is why I ask. But I undertsand the difficulty in pleasing both groups If not then it's nice to know players of the future won't experience the same thing. My idea would be to increase his range to 500, remove knockback on autos, autos shoot through mininos but deal less damage after 1 minion hit (like Varus Q) and Revert his Q. Something like this I think could bring him back to bot lane and keep his viablitiy as a jungler.
Sukishoo (NA)
: >Graves is even more egregious because he's not even a "Marksman" anymore even though he's labelled as one. But he is. Just because he is often in Jungle which is the position, doesn't make his Role not a marksmen. Kindred is a Jungle Marksmen as well
> [{quoted}](name=Sukishoo,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=rLtzHjlZ,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2019-11-13T20:31:15.734+0000) > > But he is. Just because he is often in Jungle which is the position, doesn't make his Role not a marksmen. Kindred is a Jungle Marksmen as well Yeah I fixed it.
Audhulma (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Murr Wurr,realm=OCE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=rLtzHjlZ,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2019-11-13T13:34:30.900+0000) > > I think Riot has a problem in general about desiging/balancing champions for jungle. Riot has very serious problems with designing and balancing champions at all, and they especially have serious problems with handling the jungle in it's entirety. Or maybe more accurately, _they have absolutely no clue what they really want to do with the jungle_, and it makes the game volatile. It's incredible because they finally got the lore team in a good spot after struggling to do so for years, the team handling in-game graphics evolved quite well and is largely on point, the sound and art teams are doing fantastic work - just about everybody has improved throughout this last decade, but the design and balance teams seem to drop the ball worse and worse every year. And honestly I don't envy the balance team, it's literally an impossible task that gets compounded every single time the design team shits the bed.
> [{quoted}](name=Audhulma,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=rLtzHjlZ,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2019-11-13T13:57:40.271+0000) > > Riot has very serious problems with designing and balancing champions at all, and they especially have serious problems with handling the jungle in it's entirety. Or maybe more accurately, _they have absolutely no clue what they really want to do with the jungle_, and it makes the game volatile. > > It's incredible because they finally got the lore team in a good spot after struggling to do so for years, the team handling in-game graphics evolved quite well and is largely on point, the sound and art teams are doing fantastic work - just about everybody has improved throughout this last decade, but the design and balance teams seem to drop the ball worse and worse every year. And honestly I don't envy the balance team, it's literally an impossible task that gets compounded every single time the design team shits the bed. Releasing balance nightmares like Yuumi or Akali doesn't help either.
Audhulma (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Murr Wurr,realm=OCE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=rLtzHjlZ,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-11-13T03:08:04.027+0000) > > Why is it so that Graves players just have to accept that thier champion was turned into a jungler? This is exactly how I feel about Nidalee. I loved playing Nid before that rework. I didn't care about the spear nerfs (the hitbox was legitimately as big as a school bus), I didn't care about the trap nerfs (40% defense shred? Why??), and I didn't care about the healing nerfs. I wasn't a fan of pounce being made easy mode, but it wasn't upsetting either. But giving her cougar at lvl 1 so that she could have the **option** to jungle turned her into a strictly jungle champion. She _can't_ be balanced around lane anymore because it makes her a nightmare in the jungle. Actually fucking infuriating, and one of the reasons I stopped playing SR in the first place.
> [{quoted}](name=Audhulma,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=rLtzHjlZ,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2019-11-13T13:29:46.139+0000) > > This is exactly how I feel about Nidalee. I loved playing Nid before that rework. > > I didn't care about the spear nerfs (the hitbox was legitimately as big as a school bus), I didn't care about the trap nerfs (40% defense shred? Why??), and I didn't care about the healing nerfs. I wasn't a fan of pounce being made easy mode, but it wasn't upsetting either. > > But giving her cougar at lvl 1 so that she could have the **option** to jungle turned her into a strictly jungle champion. She _can't_ be balanced around lane anymore because it makes her a nightmare in the jungle. Actually fucking infuriating, and one of the reasons I stopped playing SR in the first place. I think Riot has a problem in general about desiging/balancing champions for jungle. I mean, how many times have champions that Riot never intended to jungle turned into junglers? Ekko, Taliyah, Vi, Gragas(?), Karthus, Ornn, Riven, Camille, Diana. I just feel like they're almost oblivious to what kits are good for jungle and when a champion becomes strong in the jungle when it wasn't intended to they have no idea how to balance it.
: > [{quoted}](name=Murr Wurr,realm=OCE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=rLtzHjlZ,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2019-11-13T13:14:54.369+0000) > > I don't mean a champion to be completely reworked into another lane or thier identity completely changed because in *some* cases that's needed. > > I mean the treatment Graves *specifcially* got. I will point out that Graves did have presence in Top, Bot, and Jg shortly after his rework because he was just that strong They nerfed him like crazy until he could only jungle. Its mainly a balance issue. The rework does force him to attack less and its a rework that mostly happened over Lucian and MF having the same role and Riot wanting to make the champion more diverse. To some extent it worked, to some extent it failed. But its not that being a short ranged adc thats mostly based on spells isn't viable botlane, its just that they put high priority on him knocking back monsters and being able to jungle with his balance and cut his base stats and damage heavily. Its dumb how it was handled but its not a case of Riot trying to design him out of the lane. Its a case of them being incompetent at managing multiple roles and deciding Jungle was the role people liked the most.
> [{quoted}](name=TwitchInMyPants,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=rLtzHjlZ,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2019-11-13T13:22:37.758+0000) > > I will point out that Graves did have presence in Top, Bot, and Jg shortly after his rework because he was just that strong > > They nerfed him like crazy until he could only jungle. Its mainly a balance issue. The rework does force him to attack less and its a rework that mostly happened over Lucian and MF having the same role and Riot wanting to make the champion more diverse. To some extent it worked, to some extent it failed. But its not that being a short ranged adc thats mostly based on spells isn't viable botlane, its just that they put high priority on him knocking back monsters and being able to jungle with his balance and cut his base stats and damage heavily. > > Its dumb how it was handled but its not a case of Riot trying to design him out of the jungle. Its a case of them being incompetent at managing multiple roles and deciding Jungle was the role people liked the most. Yeah I actually remember after his rework where he was played in bot lane and it was actually pretty fun. It's just really a shame that they gave up on him being an ADC and balanced him around jungle which arguably has become another nightmare to balance between solo queue and pro play.
: > [{quoted}](name=Murr Wurr,realm=OCE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=rLtzHjlZ,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2019-11-13T13:11:12.244+0000) > > Too much to ask for, for him to be returned to bot lane from where he was wrongly thrown out of? I don't think so. > > He was already an individual character even when Lucian was released he had an individual identity, his identity is actually pretty much exactly the same a bursty AD ranged champion, the only difference is, he's a jungler and his AA but I'm not sure what his rework did to develop him into a better character or solidify his individuality? He was NOT an individual character. He was a Marksman with a damage ability a dash and an AOE blind. Since you mentioned Lucian, that's basically the same thing. Now that he's out of Bot lane, guess what he is now? ***A long-ranged fighter/Melee-ranged shooter.*** He's the first and only of his kind.
> [{quoted}](name=The Highest Noon,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=rLtzHjlZ,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2019-11-13T13:19:14.016+0000) > > He was NOT an individual character. He was a Marksman with a damage ability a dash and an AOE blind. Since you mentioned Lucian, that's basically the same thing. Now that he's out of Bot lane, guess what he is now? ***A long-ranged fighter/Melee-ranged shooter.*** He's the first and only of his kind. To be clear when you say "character" do you mean his kit? or do you mean his personality/theme? Because his personality/theme whatever word you want to use was established, sure lore was thin but it was thin all over the place back then and has largely changed since but Grave's actual identity as a character is largely the same as I said a bad-ass, cigar smoking (except in China) tough guy cowboy, southern type of attitude. If you're talking about his actual kit in terms of gameplay then he was established then as well. Like I said he was the skirmish heavy bursty ADC that wasnt afraid to get up close and personal and his smokescreen was and is still a unique ability in the game.
: "If this happened to any other champion Riot wouldn't have allowed it" {{champion:163}} {{champion:30}} {{champion:79}} I'm sorry to say but this has happened before, will almost certainly happen again, and the community is really complacent with Riot doing this. Champion gets a build in the jungle, it turns out to be good, they get gutted in their other roles to balance the jungle build, they can now only jungle. Riot doesn't know how to support multiple roles :V
> [{quoted}](name=TwitchInMyPants,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=rLtzHjlZ,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-11-13T12:44:49.018+0000) > > "If this happened to any other champion Riot wouldn't have allowed it" > > {{champion:163}} {{champion:30}} {{champion:79}} > > I'm sorry to say but this has happened before, will almost certainly happen again, and the community is really complacent with Riot doing this. Champion gets a build in the jungle, it turns out to be good, they get gutted in their other roles to balance the jungle build, they can now only jungle. Riot doesn't know how to support multiple roles :V I don't mean a champion to be completely reworked into another lane or thier identity completely changed because in *some* cases that's needed. I mean the treatment Graves *specifcially* got. He was doing fine on his own, loved by the community and had his role as a bad ass bursty ADC cowboy type of guy with a cigar and everything was fine and dandy. All of a sudden Lucian gets released, you have low ADC diversity in bot lane and people think "Lucian is a better Graves" And as we know with the ADC reworks aimed at bringing more diversity to bot lane and ADC's kits Graves is reworked and ultimately booted out of bot lane and essentially turned into a jungler. If **this** specific thing happened to any other champion people wouldn't let it down and I'd be shocked if Riot allowed it again since they've already unfortunatley allowed it to happen once. Imagine if Riot releases a new champion that has a similar kit to Ahri and now they become a "better Ahri" and Ahri all of a sudden is reworked into a jungler. See how ridiculous this is? that's what I meant.
: Yes, it is too much to ask for. Him being kicked out has solidified his individuality as a Champion. I'm glad he's out of it because it allowed him to develop into a better character.
> [{quoted}](name=The Highest Noon,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=rLtzHjlZ,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-11-13T12:48:09.423+0000) > > Yes, it is too much to ask for. Him being kicked out has solidified his individuality as a Champion. I'm glad he's out of it because it allowed him to develop into a better character. Too much to ask for, for him to be returned to bot lane from where he was wrongly thrown out of? I don't think so. He was already an individual character even when Lucian was released he had an individual identity, his identity is actually pretty much exactly the same a bursty AD ranged champion, the only difference is, he's a jungler and his AA but I'm not sure what his rework did to develop him into a better character or solidify his individuality?
Comentários de Rioters
: > [{quoted}](name=Murr Wurr,realm=OCE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=QKfs4N4b,comment-id=0004000000000000,timestamp=2019-06-03T10:33:50.545+0000) > > I think the only reason you're thinking it's "bonkers" is because you're imaginaning that his autos would do a ton of damage to every minion but you can have a pretty severe damage falloff after the initial targets. > > It's something that you'd have to play around with but I think it's balancable. At which point I must ask, what's the point of the auto's being aoe at that point?
> [{quoted}](name=SpecterVonBaren,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=QKfs4N4b,comment-id=00040000000000000000,timestamp=2019-06-03T18:32:02.574+0000) > > At which point I must ask, what's the point of the auto's being aoe at that point? What do you mean? he'd have to be able to shoot through minions to make him a viable ADC and he'd have to have damage fall off after the first target otherwise he'd be broken so those two are just the reality of bringing him into the bot lane, if you want to keep the feel of his current rework then those two changes are almost non negotionable. Also for some reason Riot and some people that play league want Graves to *feel* like he's shooting a shot gun and these changes would make him a viable, unique adc while retaining the shot gun feel. It also allows for interesting and unique gameplay and laning.
: > [{quoted}](name=Murr Wurr,realm=OCE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=QKfs4N4b,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2019-06-02T19:22:34.952+0000) > > My point is, Graves was COMPLETELY removed from the bot lane and the frustrating thing is if you just increased his range to 500 or 525 and allowed him to shoot through minions with diminishing damage after the first target hit, he'd be a REALLY cool UNIQUE ADC, but they don't want to do it, and that shits me the most. He already is a cool unique ADC, just go bot with him, he can do it. He may be better in the jungle, but he's only been "completely removed from bot lane" because of player perception and expectations. Quinn is the other example, she can go bot, but is significantly better at top.
> [{quoted}](name=Paletongue,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=QKfs4N4b,comment-id=000300000001,timestamp=2019-06-03T15:12:34.834+0000) > > He already is a cool unique ADC, just go bot with him, he can do it. He may be better in the jungle, but he's only been "completely removed from bot lane" because of player perception and expectations. Quinn is the other example, she can go bot, but is significantly better at top. You should go play 20 games as Graves ADC and post your opgg after and also tell me how much fun you had.
: > [{quoted}](name=Murr Wurr,realm=OCE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=QKfs4N4b,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-06-02T18:15:20.008+0000) > > I just don't understand why they didn't make the changes I suggested in my post or something like that because I don't think it was too late in fact I still think it isn't too late. Even if the changes you proposed would have gone through then he would the best wave clear in the game. Remember Graves jungle one shotting people with a single auto attack and old dark harvest. Making that hit multiple people on a higher range than it is currently would be game breaking because you could delete multiple people as a relatively tanky adc with either 1 auto+r or 2 autos. As an adc he would still want to get in your face because of his passive that makes him unique meaning he would either have to have stupidly low damages or a single target auto attack, killing the thing that makes him unique. And as a top lane main man I would love to have Shyvana, Vi, Yi, Xin, Kayn and Gragas be balanced around top lane again, but they will probably never be balanced around the lane again, because that would make their jungle (their best roles) be broken beyond belief. Please think about what your suggestions would do to the game if they were implemented in the future.
> [{quoted}](name=thechosenmaster,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=QKfs4N4b,comment-id=000000000001,timestamp=2019-06-03T17:50:47.866+0000) > > Even if the changes you proposed would have gone through then he would the best wave clear in the game. Remember Graves jungle one shotting people with a single auto attack and old dark harvest. Making that hit multiple people on a higher range than it is currently would be game breaking because you could delete multiple people as a relatively tanky adc with either 1 auto+r or 2 autos. As an adc he would still want to get in your face because of his passive that makes him unique meaning he would either have to have stupidly low damages or a single target auto attack, killing the thing that makes him unique. And as a top lane main man I would love to have Shyvana, Vi, Yi, Xin, Kayn and Gragas be balanced around top lane again, but they will probably never be balanced around the lane again, because that would make their jungle (their best roles) be broken beyond belief. Please think about what your suggestions would do to the game if they were implemented in the future. I've played a lot of Graves latley and let me tell youI've almost never one shot anybody with 1 auto. Besides that you have to remember his autos would have a severe damage fall off after the first target hit. It's part of the reason why I originally thought his reload speed should remain the same the entire game and not get faster but people argued he'd be way too weak late game if that was how it worked. But I think it's balancable, you'd just have to tweak his reload speed, you could also reduce the width of his cone aa since he has extra range now.
Leetri (EUW)
: > [{quoted}](name=JackMcSnipeyz,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=QKfs4N4b,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2019-06-03T11:01:53.614+0000) > > The biggest crime is the reason Graves was reworked in the first place was because him and Lucian filled the same niche - Burst ability based marksmen. > > But for some reason, instead of keeping him botlane and changing Lucian, they scrapped the original burst marksmen. > > I'd pay money to be able to get his old kit back.. They changed Graves because the theme fit Lucian better. Graves used to be my 2nd favourite ADC, but I understand why they changed him.
> [{quoted}](name=Leetri,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=QKfs4N4b,comment-id=000b0000,timestamp=2019-06-03T15:46:52.415+0000) > > They changed Graves because the theme fit Lucian better. Graves used to be my 2nd favourite ADC, but I understand why they changed him. My question wasn't why did they rework him it's why did they **remove him from the bot lane** you can rework Graves and keep him as an ADC, it's a real shame that they essentially turned him into a jungler.
: I miss Graves ADC, and the concept of a manly man IS missing from the role (I like primarily tanky chicks like Leona, but here we are with the crickets otherwise). But if you step back from this, Graves would NOT be very unique if you put him in bot with your changes. A dash, a minor utility AoE, and short range. Also to boot, his kit would be absolute ass for anything other than wave clear... Which he'd still suck at. His numbers would have to go way higher, which would end up busting him because he'd get played again in the jungle anyways. His q and primary damage is reliant on walls and quick burst, and 2 shot autos would be highly exploitable, leaving him insanely mana hungry for constantly dashing or just getting straight shoved in.
> [{quoted}](name=Darwin Award,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=QKfs4N4b,comment-id=000c,timestamp=2019-06-03T11:39:03.807+0000) > > I miss Graves ADC, and the concept of a manly man IS missing from the role (I like primarily tanky chicks like Leona, but here we are with the crickets otherwise). > > But if you step back from this, Graves would NOT be very unique if you put him in bot with your changes. A dash, a minor utility AoE, and short range. > > Also to boot, his kit would be absolute ass for anything other than wave clear... Which he'd still suck at. His numbers would have to go way higher, which would end up busting him because he'd get played again in the jungle anyways. His q and primary damage is reliant on walls and quick burst, and 2 shot autos would be highly exploitable, leaving him insanely mana hungry for constantly dashing or just getting straight shoved in. When you say step back do you mean revert him? because honestly I'm all on board for that.
: > [{quoted}](name=Murr Wurr,realm=OCE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=QKfs4N4b,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2019-06-02T19:37:17.059+0000) > > Let me clarify, I would give him those range buffs but I would take away the knockback so his jungling isn't insane and also what are you talking about? he's be incredibly unique. > > He'd be the ONLY ADC that has autos that do aoe cone damage, one of only 2 ADC's with a reload mechanic, he'd have a pretty low range of 500 or 525 which would make his playstyle very different to any other ADC, his autos not only go through minions but they deal less damage to evrything after the firt target which would give him a unique laning phase, I mean seriousy. His waveclear would be bonkers, do you not understand what having a resourceless, aoe, ranged waveclear means?
> [{quoted}](name=SpecterVonBaren,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=QKfs4N4b,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2019-06-03T10:20:27.841+0000) > > His waveclear would be bonkers, do you not understand what having a resourceless, aoe, ranged waveclear means? I think the only reason you're thinking it's "bonkers" is because you're imaginaning that his autos would do a ton of damage to every minion but you can have a pretty severe damage falloff after the initial targets. It's something that you'd have to play around with but I think it's balancable.
mack9112 (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Murr Wurr,realm=OCE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=QKfs4N4b,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-06-02T18:15:20.008+0000) > > I just don't understand why they didn't make the changes I suggested in my post or something like that because I don't think it was too late in fact I still think it isn't too late. The changes you suggest make his jungling even more oppressive. As long as he has the knockback on his autos for monster in the jungle he will be a jungler as it makes him able to take minimal damage from jungle camps. Your suggestion of range increase makes it worse.
> [{quoted}](name=mack9112,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=QKfs4N4b,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-06-03T04:28:57.032+0000) > > The changes you suggest make his jungling even more oppressive. As long as he has the knockback on his autos for monster in the jungle he will be a jungler as it makes him able to take minimal damage from jungle camps. Your suggestion of range increase makes it worse. Yeah, you'd definitley have to remove the knockback, I thought I edited that in my post but I didn't, I will now though.
: Because he was just a worse Lucian. They INTENDED for him to be an ADC, but he just worked far better as a jungler. I'm pretty sure they intend for Vlad and Ryze to be mid laners, but they work out better in top. They went with what the players liked, and they evidently liked Graves jungle. But nothing is stopping you from going Graves ADC. I used to play Kindred ADC.
> [{quoted}](name=Ionian Vulpix,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=QKfs4N4b,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2019-06-03T00:51:21.545+0000) > > Because he was just a worse Lucian. They INTENDED for him to be an ADC, but he just worked far better as a jungler. I'm pretty sure they intend for Vlad and Ryze to be mid laners, but they work out better in top. > > They went with what the players liked, and they evidently liked Graves jungle. But nothing is stopping you from going Graves ADC. I used to play Kindred ADC. You're saying they went with what players liked but as far as I know there's a very large portion of players, especially at the time of the rework that didn't like the new direction even today you have a lot of people who wish he was never reworked in the first place, me being one of them. You're saying they reworked him because he was a worse Lucian (something I disagree with) but my question wasn't *why* he was reworked it was *why was he removed from the bot lane* once he became a jungler they didn't make any effort at all to return him to the bot lane and honestly, I don't remember people loving jg Graves to the point where they just didn't care he wasn't an ADC anymore.
: > I mean none of these are really comparible, most of them besides the COMPLETE reworks like Poppy are very recognizable to thier previous selves either mechanically or you can still play them in the lane you played them before. Graves is also very similar to what he originally was. He's still a very durable short ranged ADC that actually makes sense when he outduels you in melee range. A lot of his damage is still AoE conal. As you can see, the little differences in mechanics and aesthetic can totally change how a champion feels. You had Graves taken from you, see if you can empathize with all the other reworks that took champions away from other people. It was necessary with Poppy, needed with Sion, but not everyone has been lucky as Heimerdinger's been (on both occasions) with reworks. > Graves is literally DELETED from bottom lane. In the words of the Super Top, Riot Ponytail: >Bruisers are just being removed from top lane. Jax is a jungler now. Xin is in the jungle. >Kayn top was the most fun I had had in years. Riot didn't like how corrupting pot allowed Kayn to transform too quickly so they fixed the interaction and removed him from top lane saying "oh, we'll rebalance him to be able to lane, don't worry". A week later, no one is paying attention and they say "no, we're not doing that anymore, we lied." It's like bruisers are in The Thing or something, being picked off one-by-one saying "oh, nothing is going on here, we're fine", we're constantly just being replaced. >Meanwhile what, Graves and Corki are removed from bot and ADCs scream bloody murder? When their picks are always viable and they only ever have to go up against one another?
> [{quoted}](name=Glaricion,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=QKfs4N4b,comment-id=00050000000000000000,timestamp=2019-06-02T21:46:51.753+0000) > > Graves is also very similar to what he originally was. > He's still a very durable short ranged ADC that actually makes sense when he outduels you in melee range. > A lot of his damage is still AoE conal. > > As you can see, the little differences in mechanics and aesthetic can totally change how a champion feels. > > You had Graves taken from you, see if you can empathize with all the other reworks that took champions away from other people. > > It was necessary with Poppy, needed with Sion, but not everyone has been lucky as Heimerdinger's been (on both occasions) with reworks. > > In the words of the Super Top, Riot Ponytail: Graves is just a completely different character to what he was before so I wouldn't say he's pretty similar. I don't even mind his kit I'm just saying Riot should find a way to bring him back to the bot lane. I don't really sympathise on this issue because if I was a nidalee one trick, I can still play Nid mid or top, if I liked Trist before I can still play Trist as an ADC etc you get my point, the closest thing it comes to is the comoplete reworks like Yorick and GP and Poppy, they're just gone and I feel for them because I was an old Yorick main and I miss him but I understand why he was reworked. But even so, bringing up the fact that other champions have been reworked and it sucks for those players too is a nonsequiter because we're not talking about those champions, we're talking about Graves. Yeah but isn't Jax top really good right now? also the champion pool for ADC's is so much smaller so it sucks when one of them, especially if you really enjoyed them isn't really playable anymore and while ADC's aren't drastically different from each other, the small differences when you're an ADC main really matters and you really enjoy them and when they're gone it just sours the whole role a lot.
: Graves was incredibly generic as a carry, and completely failed to deliver his "shotgun guy" fantasy. The rework was awesome thematically. He was really the "get close and personal ranged carry". But he ended up being played in the jungle, and they had to balance him in that role. Subsequent and necessary nerfs made him unviable in his now secondary role. You can't really have "shotgun fantasy" with shots that go through minions and are high range. And it wouldn't even be balanced having best of both worlds, with range AND close up damage.
> [{quoted}](name=GelsominoKiller,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=QKfs4N4b,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2019-06-02T21:39:22.605+0000) > > Graves was incredibly generic as a carry, and completely failed to deliver his "shotgun guy" fantasy. > > The rework was awesome thematically. He was really the "get close and personal ranged carry". But he ended up being played in the jungle, and they had to balance him in that role. Subsequent and necessary nerfs made him unviable in his now secondary role. > * You can't really have "shotgun fantasy" with shots that go through minions and are high range. And it wouldn't even be balanced having best of both worlds, with range AND close up damage. Here's what I said to somebody else about his gun still feeling like a shot gun. >Also, his gun would 100% still feel like a shotgun because A: you have 2 bullets B: he has to reload and C: His autos still do aoe cone damage that falls off after every enemy hit, just like how pellets do less damage the furthur they're shot. >Also, shot guns can shoot a lot furthur and a lot more accuratley that people think they can, because of video games people assume all shot guns have an effective range of like 3 or 4 feet or something and then you're accuracy goes to shit but just google target shooting with shot guns on youtube, they're more accurate than you think they are. >So really if you want to get into the nitty gritty of it, it would highly depend on the type of shot gun Graves has. But like I said I'm confident that it would still feel very shot gun like. Remember 500-525 isn't huge for a marksman. I mean, he wasnt generic to me, what constitutes as generic? because if Graves was then imo so is Jinx and Sivir and Vayne but I don't want them to be removed from the bottom lane. About balancing I think you can balance it, you'd have a hard damage fall off, maybe his autos don't do full damage unless super up close, I'm not the guy to figure that stuff out because it gets pretty complicated but and I could be wrong I do feel like it's balancable. Also another thing about this shotgun fantasy that you're bringing up, I do think my proposed changes still fullfills this role because how far do you want to take it? otherwise Twitch shouldn't be shooting **through** people with a crossbow.
: the reason was because all of the ADCs were pretty much interchangeable (with a few exceptions) so they changed him to be more unique. He ended up being a strong jungler so they let him be a strong jungler.
> [{quoted}](name=Marshbouy,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=QKfs4N4b,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2019-06-02T20:53:13.794+0000) > > the reason was because all of the ADCs were pretty much interchangeable (with a few exceptions) so they changed him to be more unique. He ended up being a strong jungler so they let him be a strong jungler. It's just really a shame they did that to him.
: > [{quoted}](name=Murr Wurr,realm=OCE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=QKfs4N4b,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2019-06-02T19:51:39.410+0000) > > -Nid is still a jungler and honetsly feels very similar to old Nidalee. Nid as a jungler was a weird off-role thing that some people did originally. > -Skarner is still a jungler and to me he just feels like a better version of his original self nothing extremely drastic. Is basically a dead champion w/ no ability to lane anymore. > -Xin is still a jungler and again just feels to me, like an upgraded version of the original. Used to also lane too. > -Poppy, still a top laner. She was a grumpy assassin w/ a fighter off-build, she's now an extremely lovable and adorable tank. > -Sion still a top laner. Sion had two weird disparate builds, AA heavy fighter w/ huge sustain or a cheese burster. Personality was also very action B movie corny. Now is a serious tank. > -Taric still a support. Used to be able to burst at the cost of his defensive capabilities with a good cheese laning build. Dazzle stun also had an interesting damage versus stun length trade-off with its range. > -Trist still an ADC and pretty similar honestly to old Trist at least mechanically Mid AP build no longer viable. > -Urgot still a top laner Plays completely differently, locked autos and an execute ult versus role reversal and landing a poison tracer to create a lock for your Q missiles, from medium-long range to a much shorter faux-melee playstyle. Not much of an anti-carry caster, more of an off-tank. > -Zac is still a jungler. He's a tank w/ low damage versus the popular AP assassin he used to be. Also used to occasionally be played as a laner around 20% of the time iirc >-I don't know enough about Karma but as far as I know nothing TOO drastic, not on GP levels, also she's as far as I know still played in the roles she was before. Removed shield bomb, removed AoE conal healing nuke, tether acts completely different, no more getting stronger as your health falls, her iconic fans were relegated to her traditional skin's emote. I think her lane playrates were heavily moved around w/ the rework, but it has been so long that it is hard to recall. Really do enjoy Qarma, but she's a completely different champion.
> [{quoted}](name=Glaricion,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=QKfs4N4b,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2019-06-02T20:10:55.636+0000) > > Nid as a jungler was a weird off-role thing that some people did originally. > > Is basically a dead champion w/ no ability to lane anymore. > > Used to also lane too. > > She was a grumpy assassin w/ a fighter off-build, she's now an extremely lovable and adorable tank. > > Sion had two weird disparate builds, AA heavy fighter w/ huge sustain or a cheese burster. > Personality was also very action B movie corny. > Now is a serious tank. > > Used to be able to burst at the cost of his defensive capabilities with a good cheese laning build. > Dazzle stun also had an interesting damage versus stun length trade-off with its range. > > Mid AP build no longer viable. > > Plays completely differently, locked autos and an execute ult versus role reversal and landing a poison tracer to create a lock for your Q missiles, from medium-long range to a much shorter faux-melee playstyle. > Not much of an anti-carry caster, more of an off-tank. > > He's a tank w/ low damage versus the popular AP assassin he used to be. > > Also used to occasionally be played as a laner around 20% of the time iirc > > Removed shield bomb, removed AoE conal healing nuke, tether acts completely different, no more getting stronger as your health falls, her iconic fans were relegated to her traditional skin's emote. I think her lane playrates were heavily moved around w/ the rework, but it has been so long that it is hard to recall. > > Really do enjoy Qarma, but she's a completely different champion. I mean none of these are really comparible, most of them besides the COMPLETE reworks like Poppy are very recognizable to thier previous selves either mechanically or you can still play them in the lane you played them before. Graves is literally DELETED from bottom lane.
: >With every rework Riot **tries to keep the feel** of the champion **and** hopefully tro to allow the champion to be **played within the same lane** : X {{champion:76}} {{champion:72}} {{champion:5}} {{champion:266}} {{champion:42}} {{champion:41}} {{champion:43}} {{champion:78}} {{champion:14}} {{champion:44}} {{champion:18}} {{champion:6}} {{champion:154}} {{champion:3}}
> [{quoted}](name=Glaricion,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=QKfs4N4b,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2019-06-02T19:44:32.442+0000) > > : X > > {{champion:76}} {{champion:72}} {{champion:5}} {{champion:266}} {{champion:42}} {{champion:41}} {{champion:43}} {{champion:78}} {{champion:14}} {{champion:44}} {{champion:18}} {{champion:6}} {{champion:154}} -Nid is still a jungler and honetsly feels very similar to old Nidalee. -Skarner is still a jungler and to me he just feels like a better version of his original self nothing extremely drastic. -Xin is still a jungler and again just feels to me, like an upgraded version of the original. -Aatrox is still a top laner, his change is the most drastic so far but he feels very good to play. -Corki isnt ADC anymore but his actual abilities are extremely similar in how they behave mechanically. -GP is still a top laner and he's got recognizable abilities, he's very different though that's true. -I don't know enough about Karma but as far as I know nothing TOO drastic, not on GP levels, also she's as far as I know still played in the roles she was before. -Poppy, still a top laner. -Sion still a top laner. -Taric still a support. -Trist still an ADC and pretty similar honestly to old Trist at least mechanically -Urgot still a top laner -Zac is still a jungler. See what I'm getting at here? a lot of these reworks either kept a similar mechanical feeling to the champion while introducing new abilities OR they at least didn't make the champion convert to an entirely different lane like Graves was. I'm not even against Grave's new kit, I actually like it, like I said in my post all I'd want is his range increased to 500 or 525, shoot through minions (deals less damage after firt target hit) and no knockback (otherwise his jungling is obviously ridiculous with the increased range). I actually like his new kit and I think if they made these changes they would've accomplished what I THINK they wanted to originally and make him a more diverse, unique ADC instead of literally making him UNPLAYABLE in the bot lane and all of a sudden he's a JUNGLER.
Dynikus (NA)
: > if you increase his range to something like 500 or 525 and allow him to shoot through minions Those would be fairly substantial buffs to a champion that definitely doesn't need them. I'm also not really sure how making him more similar to every other botlane adc would make him more unique than he currently is.
> [{quoted}](name=Dynikus,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=QKfs4N4b,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-06-02T19:26:45.586+0000) > > Those would be fairly substantial buffs to a champion that definitely doesn't need them. > I'm also not really sure how making him more similar to every other botlane adc would make him more unique than he currently is. Let me clarify, I would give him those range buffs but I would take away the knockback so his jungling isn't insane and also what are you talking about? he's be incredibly unique. He'd be the ONLY ADC that has autos that do aoe cone damage, one of only 2 ADC's with a reload mechanic, he'd have a pretty low range of 500 or 525 which would make his playstyle very different to any other ADC, his autos not only go through minions but they deal less damage to evrything after the firt target which would give him a unique laning phase, I mean seriousy.
: Reworks aren't supposed to preserve how the old champion played. They're supposed to get rid of the old champion and bring in a new kit.
> [{quoted}](name=Akali is SO HOT,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=QKfs4N4b,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-06-02T19:14:55.078+0000) > > Reworks aren't supposed to preserve how the old champion played. They're supposed to get rid of the old champion and bring in a new kit. I'm not sure what you mean by "played" I said the same feel and hopefully the same role. Kayle still feels like Kayle just updated and even if she doesn't she's still a top/mid laner. GP retained some of his skills and he's still a top/mid laner, Ryze with all the reworks he recieved is still a top/mid laner. My point is, Graves was COMPLETELY removed from the bot lane and the frustrating thing is if you just increased his range to 500 or 525 and allowed him to shoot through minions with diminishing damage after the first target hit, he'd be a REALLY cool UNIQUE ADC, but they don't want to do it, and that shits me the most.
l MrD l (NA)
: he was made for bot still but jungling proved to be stronger .. increasing the range of his autoes would remove what he is ... he wants to get into your face and be rewarded with more damage by getting close and by making his autoes go through minions that removes the shot gun feel riot are quite big on themes and they try to preserve it as hard as they can
> [{quoted}](name=l MrD l,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=QKfs4N4b,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-06-02T18:43:44.049+0000) > > he was made for bot still but jungling proved to be stronger .. increasing the range of his autoes would remove what he is ... he wants to get into your face and be rewarded with more damage by getting close and by making his autoes go through minions that removes the shot gun feel > > riot are quite big on themes and they try to preserve it as hard as they can 500 and 525 is pretty low range for ADC's which is the range I suggested so he'd still have to get pretty close as far as ADC's go and remember I'm trying to get him back into the bot lane where he was supposed to be and those ranges are pretty small. You could reduce his tankiness because of the gained range I don't care but for an ADC that's pretty close. Also, his gun would 100% still feel like a shotgun because A: you have 2 bullets B: he has to reload and C: His autos still do aoe cone damage that falls off after every enemy hit, just like how pellets do less damage the furthur they're shot. Also, shot guns can shoot a lot furthur and a lot more accuratley that people think they can, because of video games people assume all shot guns have an effective range of like 3 or 4 feet or something and then you're accuracy goes to shit but just google target shooting with shot guns on youtube, they're more accurate than you think they are. So really if you want to get into the nitty gritty of it, it would highly depend on the type of shot gun Graves has. But like I said I'm confident that it would still feel very shot gun like.
: He was a stronger jungler than they expected and made the mistake of thinking they could balance him for both roles rather than axing his jungle right away. By the time they realized there was no way to keep him balanced for both he had already been skewed so heavily towards the jungle it was too late to go back.
> [{quoted}](name=Quality Content,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=QKfs4N4b,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-06-02T18:11:17.634+0000) > > He was a stronger jungler than they expected and made the mistake of thinking they could balance him for both roles rather than axing his jungle right away. By the time they realized there was no way to keep him balanced for both he had already been skewed so heavily towards the jungle it was too late to go back. I just don't understand why they didn't make the changes I suggested in my post or something like that because I don't think it was too late in fact I still think it isn't too late.
Comentários de Rioters
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: May 24
Hey Medller, are there any plans to make Graves viable in the bot lane again via some sort of mini rework? or possibly even reverting the rework altogether?
: > [{quoted}](name=Murr Wurr,realm=OCE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=Y17yIUwF,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-10-01T15:20:30.269+0000) > > While I agree Twitch chat is horrible I don't think we should default to > > "nobody reads it anyway" > > I'm not saying it's the focus of every single person watching I'm 100% sure it's a minority that reads chat and even engages with it but it's still problamatic. > > What if Raz knows that every time he's on stream Twitch chat is just spamming TriHard or CmonBruh? Again we'd have to ask him directly how he felt about it but what if he didn't like it? and even if Raz couldn't care less, what if a black person from the community doesn't like it? > > I just think Riot could do better with the chat. I understand the problem with it, but responding to it in any way is what they're trying to do. They want to provoke a response. Ignoring it honestly is the best way to deal with the situation.
> [{quoted}](name=OurLestrade,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=Y17yIUwF,comment-id=000100000001,timestamp=2018-10-01T16:15:19.977+0000) > > I understand the problem with it, but responding to it in any way is what they're trying to do. They want to provoke a response. Ignoring it honestly is the best way to deal with the situation. I just feel like if it were banned than they woul lose thier ammunition if you will, disarmament is the decision here I think and it also doesn't solve anything if you ignore it.
: > [{quoted}](name=Murr Wurr,realm=OCE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=Y17yIUwF,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2018-10-01T15:54:16.143+0000) > > Just because you don't have an issue with it doesn't nobody else will so while it's nice you're fine with people spamming TriHard Chicken and cmonBruh everytime Raz is on stream you shouldn't apply the way you feel to everybody else. I'm not? Im not saying that everybody else will feel the same way I do,im saying that if they feel offended,that that's their own problem for getting offended by an emote most people use jokingly. There are just some things you shouldn't get offended by imo. > I pointed out that no rational person has an issue with the Twitch emote in of itself but you're taking away all the context, spamming cmonBruh incessintly when Raz is on stream can make people feel excluded and opens the floodgates to edgier jokes which I've already demonstrated. How does it make people feel excluded?that makes no sense. > I'm not alone in this either in another comment I pointed out Blizzard banning it in thier OWL stream and Asmongold a very popular World of Warcraft streamer banning cmonBruh because of the context it was being used in. And my opinion is that it shouldn't be banned. > Again while it's nice *you* don't have an issue with it doesn't mean there isn't an issue to be dealt with. Imo,there is no issue to be dealt with. Twitch emotes are nothing to be taken seriously. > In fact if you have no issue at all with it, whether it becomes banned or not shouldn't phase you so, why are you seemingly against it being banned? Because i akcnlowdege other people like using the emote,and I don't like stopping people from doing things just because somone personally might dislike it.
> [{quoted}](name=R107 Games,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=Y17yIUwF,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2018-10-01T16:06:34.588+0000) > > I'm not? Im not saying that everybody else will feel the same way I do,im saying that if they feel offended,that that's their own problem for getting offended by an emote most people use jokingly. There are just some things you shouldn't get offended by imo. > > How does it make people feel excluded?that makes no sense. > > And my opinion is that it shouldn't be banned. > > Imo,there is no issue to be dealt with. Twitch emotes are nothing to be taken seriously. > > Because i akcnlowdege other people like using the emote,and I don't like stopping people from doing things just because somone personally might dislike it. Seems like you're actually looking for some discussion which is nice. >I'm not? The crux of your argument in your first comment was "Man,who cares? Its just a twitch emote" and "Even im black and i think its funny. Just move on with your life." First of all this ignores all the context that was brought up in the post as to why TriHard has become a problem in the LoL Twitch chat, secondly by "you shouldn't apply the way you feel to everybody else" I meant that just because *you* as a black person don't have an issue with it doesn't mean nobody else *should* your argument isn't valid because not everybody feels the same way you do so it's not logical to basically say. "Well, I'm ok with it so why aren't you?" People are more complex than this, you've acknowledged this in your reply "Im not saying that everybody else will feel the same way I do" I'm just trying to clear up why I said "you shouldn't apply the way you feel to everybody else" >that that's their own problem for getting offended by an emote most people use jokingly So basically it's your fault that you're offended. Hm, Twitch chat spamming TriHard Chicken which is a play on a racist stereotype is the persons fault for being offended. While they may be making edgy jokes I think it's a better place for everybody if racist edgy jokes weren't spammed constantly. Another thing to consider is that this type of spam can make actual racists feel like they're accepted. Don't confuse my words, I'm not saying if you spam TriHard Chicken or TriHard when Raz is on screen that you're racist, I'm saying that type of behaviour can open the door for actual racists to come into the communtiy and take part in it. All in all I think the community would be healthier without the TriHard spam. >How does it make people feel excluded?that makes no sense. Again, I'm going to ask you to think about a black person who feels differently to you, it's entirely possible that when a black person sees Twitch chat spam TriHard only when Raz, a black person is on stream that the person watching feels like they're over the meme and starting to get sick of it. When they see this every.single.time. it's entirely possible that not only can they be sick of the meme and over it but possibly even become annoyed from it and therefore feel excluded from the community that chooses to spam TriHard when Raz is on stream. >And my opinion is that it shouldn't be banned. I've stated real examples of when actual Twitch streamers have decided to ban the emote because of the culture it creates on thier streams and the type of behaviour it attracts, as well as recorded racism happening in LoL's Twitch stream as to why I think TriHard should be banned and your only real argument against all of this is basically "People shouldn't get offended" I mean if that's all you're bringing to the table man, you're not doing a great job of trying to make me see why banning TriHard in the LoL Twitch stream isn't a good idea. It's fine to have your personal opinion and you may love the memes but like I said I feel like I've backed up my position pretty well beyond just personal opinion. >Imo,there is no issue to be dealt with. Twitch emotes are nothing to be taken seriously. On thier own yes, but again we need to look at the context of why and how the emotes were being used. >Because i akcnlowdege other people like using the emote,and I don't like stopping people from doing things just because somone personally might dislike it. While people may enjoy using the emote I think once in cultivates an unhealthy culture and opens the door to actual racist jokes in chat I don't think peoples enjoyment should overule the ban.
damabevi (EUW)
: ***
> [{quoted}](name=damabevi,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=Y17yIUwF,comment-id=000700000000,timestamp=2018-10-01T16:09:34.746+0000) > > ok then ban KKona too if we're gonna ban emotes that are used to make fun of people of certain races. but oh, sjws only think whites can be racist and being racist against them isn't possible. I'm talking specifically about the LoL Worlds day 1 broadcast where the chat was filled to the brim with TriHard only when Raz was on stream. You know what I didn't see when white people were on stream? KKona spam. So unless you can provide me with when Twitch chat was being racist to white people on the LoL Worlds 2018 day 1 broadcast, because I certaintly didn't see it. I'd prefer it if you didn't make false equivalences.
: > [{quoted}](name=Murr Wurr,realm=OCE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=Y17yIUwF,comment-id=0004000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-01T15:55:08.952+0000) > > I mean, I could engage with you but I know it'll be a waste of my energy, have a good day though lul. You already wasted your energy by making this post. I mean, it might be 2k18 and people already get offended by every bullshit but a twitch emote? Try again in 2 years.
> [{quoted}](name=Who Fed Ru,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=Y17yIUwF,comment-id=00040000000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-01T15:57:32.200+0000) > > You already wasted your energy by making this post. > > I mean, it might be 2k18 and people already get offended by every bullshit but a twitch emote? > Try again in 2 years. Yeah pretty much what I expected, I was correct that you're a waste of energy.
damabevi (EUW)
: ***
> [{quoted}](name=damabevi,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=Y17yIUwF,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2018-10-01T15:59:04.256+0000) > > SJW normies can't get in on the memes so they want them banned OMEGALUL > > sjw life must suck tbh, 24/7 triggered at everything on the internet smh Ahh being against racism means you're an SJW there we go. inb4 it's not racist.
: > [{quoted}](name=Murr Wurr,realm=OCE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=Y17yIUwF,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2018-10-01T15:41:19.385+0000) > > Seems like you're part of the problem then. what problem? the problem that was made up by some random player? Emote spam in twitch chat is a problem? lul
> [{quoted}](name=Who Fed Ru,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=Y17yIUwF,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2018-10-01T15:52:50.338+0000) > > what problem? > the problem that was made up by some random player? > Emote spam in twitch chat is a problem? lul I mean, I could engage with you but I know it'll be a waste of my energy, have a good day though lul.
: Man,who cares? Its just a twitch emote,don't let it bother you. If someone is offended by it then its their problem,its litteraly just a *twitch emote*. Even im black and i think its funny. Just move on with your life.
> [{quoted}](name=R107 Games,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=Y17yIUwF,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-10-01T15:48:09.688+0000) > > Man,who cares? Its just a twitch emote,don't let it bother you. If someone is offended by it then its their problem,its litteraly just a *twitch emote*. Even im black and i think its funny. Just move on with your life. Just because you don't have an issue with it doesn't nobody else will so while it's nice you're fine with people spamming TriHard Chicken and cmonBruh everytime Raz is on stream you shouldn't apply the way you feel to everybody else. I pointed out that no rational person has an issue with the Twitch emote in of itself but you're taking away all the context, spamming cmonBruh incessintly when Raz is on stream can make people feel excluded and opens the floodgates to edgier jokes which I've already demonstrated. I'm not alone in this either in another comment I pointed out Blizzard banning it in thier OWL stream and Asmongold a very popular World of Warcraft streamer banning cmonBruh because of the context it was being used in. Again while it's nice *you* don't have an issue with it doesn't mean there isn't an issue to be dealt with. In fact if you have no issue at all with it, whether it becomes banned or not shouldn't phase you so, why are you seemingly against it being banned?
: nah let twitch chat be cancer that's why i love it
> [{quoted}](name=Who Fed Ru,realm=EUW,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=Y17yIUwF,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2018-10-01T15:40:29.732+0000) > > nah let twitch chat be cancer > > that's why i love it Seems like you're part of the problem then.
SS Pappino (EUNE)
: > [{quoted}](name=Murr Wurr,realm=OCE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=Y17yIUwF,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2018-10-01T15:17:32.610+0000) > > Yikes don't tell me I've encountered an edge lord already, care to expand? :D
> [{quoted}](name=SS Pappino,realm=EUNE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=Y17yIUwF,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2018-10-01T15:22:44.181+0000) > > :D Can't say I'm surprised.
Drugoth (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Murr Wurr,realm=OCE,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=Y17yIUwF,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-10-01T15:20:30.269+0000) > > While I agree Twitch chat is horrible I don't think we should default to > > "nobody reads it anyway" > > I'm not saying it's the focus of every single person watching I'm 100% sure it's a minority that reads chat and even engages with it but it's still problamatic. > > What if Raz knows that every time he's on stream Twitch chat is just spamming TriHard or CmonBruh? Again we'd have to ask him directly how he felt about it but what if he didn't like it? and even if Raz couldn't care less, what if a black person from the community doesn't like it? > > I just think Riot could do better with the chat. Trihex is a popular speedrunner, famous for games like Yoshi's story. If anything I would take it as a compliment that they're spamming his face.
> [{quoted}](name=The Yung Sheets,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=Y17yIUwF,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2018-10-01T15:23:11.562+0000) > > Trihex is a popular speedrunner, famous for games like Yoshi's story. If anything I would take it as a compliment that they're spamming his face. I'm not sure what that has to do with anything, I'm aware of Trihex's stream and am a fan and am also aware he as I doesn't inherently have an issue with the emote however like I said in the context of how Twitch chat was using it, it's quite problamatic I can back this up by Blizzard banning the same emote in thier OWL stream for similar reasons. Asmongold a popular WOW streamer has banned the cmonBruh emote from his stream because of the context of how it was being used, no rational person has an inherent issue with these emotes but when they're only used incessantly when a black person appears on stream it's clear that people aren't using it to honour Trihex for example, it also tends to open the floodgates to other questionable behaviour like I pointed out in my post of where Twitch chat was spamming 'Chicken' alongside TriHard.
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Murr Wurr

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