: Preseason Dev Update Number 3!
I didn't read anything regard the gold funneling change that was added. Is there plans for a solution to the issue that would allow a complete revert of the last change?
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: October 5
Hey Meddler, As it's been over a month now, any updates on how Riot feels about the Yorick changes? His [winrate is diamond ](https://u.gg/lol/champions/yorick/build/?rank=diamond_plus) is looking pretty grim compared to what it was and he's still maintaining his[ low elo dominating status](https://u.gg/lol/champions/yorick/build/?rank=bronze).
Meddler (NA)
: We think they've been ok. He's still performing quite well in low, average and high MMR, so not seeing indicators yet that we've taken too much power out (though seeing some player feedback stating they feel otherwise). Reduction in power seems pretty consistent across MMR bands though, so we didn't hit on our other goal of reducing him a bit more in low MMR than in high.
Do you have any comments on the recent nerfs pushing him out of being a necromancer-type champion and instead becoming more like nasus?
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: September 7
Hey Meddler, It's been just a little over a week since the Yorick nerfs, did they hit the mark you were aiming at?
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: August 29
Hi Meddler, Now that the Yorick nerfs have been put into place, what is the time frame we are looking at before you review and determine the next plan of action? I'd hate for you to gut him with this change and leave him for dust for a few months. The other point i wanted to bring up was the absurd statement that was made alongside his nerf. > Top laners have unearthed Yorick as a dominant pick, in part due to the threat of his Mist Walkers. Players who understand the Mist Walkers' behavior and actively play around it avoid a lot of damage, while players who don't find themselves digging their own graves. We're toning down the damage of Mist Walkers to decrease his low level pubstomp potential. I do not understand the logic behind this. if you can acknowledge that counterplay **exists** to the extent that a percentage of the playerbase does not have issues dealing with him, then would it not make more sense to help adjust his kit's functionality so that this counterplay is more obvious to the average player? While we're at it, what exactly is the _behaviour_ that the reference was even relating to?
AceGeo (NA)
: With both the enemy turret hp nerfs and the buff to Demolish, I immediately thought Yorick's winrate would spike from patches prior. I played him exclusively for a while in ranked, him being my main #2 below Darius, with immense success. I thought it was just that his pushing power was too strong, so why the nerfs to his ghouls (which I understand help him push)? I would suggest making his maiden simply do less damage to turrets. A Yorick with Herald + Maiden is a free two turrets. A Yorick untended for 10 seconds with Maiden is a free turret by itself.
And at the cost of that, you get a sub-par team fighter who gets outclassed most top laners the second he leaves a lane. That's essentially the trade-off you are taking by playing Yorick - his job is to push objectives quickly and efficiently. Is he too good at his job? God no, there are other champions that push at similar speeds to what he does that are safer at doing so. Yorick has absolutely no form of defence outside his wall, he lacks an innate gap closer and had very low sustain. His entire kit is governed by the control of a poorly designed AI script which causes you to lose absolute control of your units the second they enter combat, so taking advantage of the design is almost easy for anyone who understands how it works. The new runes made him somewhat strong, but Demolish is a rune that everybody can use to their advantage and it is a very win-more rune. If you aren't able to get to an enemies turret, you can't use the rune at all. So what good is nerfing his mist walkers to the point where his laning is atrocious if he's overperforming with demolish and the other runes? If you're versing Yorick, it's quite easy to deal with him. You simply engage onto him, force his ultimate, and then back off. Once his ultimate is summoned in a lane he cannot get it out, and his ultimate has one of the highest base cooldowns in the game. That means you'll have between 100-160 seconds at rank 1 and 2 to take advantage of the fact that he just lost a substantial amount of his damage. As for your 'A Yorick with Herald + Maiden is a free two turrets', that's how it should be. If you reward Yorick with the ability to take the rift herald AND misplay by leaving him top lane unopposed, or you simply don't react to the herald summoning quick enough, then as far as i'm concerned you deserve to lose two turrets out of it.
: Thanks for the detailed thoughts! The intent with this nerf is to reduce the power that Yorick players are getting when their opponents don't understand Mist Walkers' behavior. While higher MMR games do tend to be longer, we believe that the importance of the strength of Mist Walkers at early levels in lower MMRs outweighs those levels being a lower proportion of the game on average. The goal with this list isn't to lower his low MMR winrate _without_ effecting his high MMR performance - this will be a nerf; just one that's dis-proportionally impacting low MMR, where his performance is the most out of line. If the result is a Yorick that's crushed in high MMR, it's reasonable that we'd look at buffs that would be more valuable for high MMR, like on E as you suggested. We'd need to be careful around how large we make Mist Walkers or their click-box, but I agree that they can feel needlessly difficult to pinpoint. Thought is that that would be a pretty big nerf overall though, and be fairly minimal toward smoothing out his success across MMRs.
I appreciate the response, but it has left me wondering a few things. 1. Meddler initially announced that both him and Garen were being nerfed to target their effect on low ELO brackets, but now from your response it seems like you believe Yorick in higher ELO brackets to be overperforming also. Is this correct or am i misinterpreting? 2. If you want to take power off the Mist Walkers, then that is perfectly fine and expected - as i agree that a lot of players do not understand what they do and how strong they can be. My question for you then becomes have you considered the proposal of changing the ratio from Total Attack Damage to Bonus Attack Damage? If you were to raise their base attack damage to 15 and keep the current per level increments, then it would take a substantial amount of attack damage to even out with the current 8.16 Mist Walkers. Not only this, but it also becomes a heavy risk heavy reward situation where you build full damage at the cost of reduced tankiness - rather than having the best of both worlds for free. The number two reddit post outlines this idea heavily and detailed, in case you didn't get a chance to check it out. 3. If you're that content with an immediate nerf to his Mist Walkers, wouldn't it seem a bit more reasonable to go for an initial reduction of 2 per level instead of 1? Losing 6 damage at level 7 per Mist Walker sucks but it's not the end of the world and somewhat manageable until a better fix comes into it. I don't see why a champion with such a low playrate and such an unusual playstyle needs such **immediate **and **drastic **fixes. In fact, he's currently the 108th most picked champion according to OP.GG. 4. Please consider the impact that any change will also have on Jungle Yorick when considering changes. While you'd think we may be the minority, Jungle Yorick actually accounts for over 50% of Yorick games on the OCE server in Platinum and above ELO ranges and is slowly picking up more and more populartiy. Me myself am exclusively a Jungle Yorick player, having reached the tops of the ladder on multiple servers and the proposed changes will effectively gut any opportunity i have to compete with meta junglers around levels 6-9 which are supposed to be one of my strongest points. 5. One thing I would like information on is Yorick's win-rate at the time of nerfing his Mist Walkers way back in patch 7.13. The damage was reduced by half at this point in time, which then left his win rate high and requiring further nerf on the Mist Walkers at a later stage. Is it possible that the Mist Walkers are not actually a primary factor that is dictating his win-rate in lower ELO brackets? For example, what happens if your changes are implemented to live and yet his winrate stays at around 55% in low ELO? At the end of the day, I really appreciate you and Meddler being vocal with us the community with whatever changes you intend to go through with Yorick. We all want the same thing after all. Thanks for your attention.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: August 24
Hello Meddler. Having seen the changes to Yorick on the PBE server, I would like to bring notice to the direction Riot is taking with handling his issue of having a high winrate in low ELO ranges. You addressed in a recent Meddlers Thoughts that ideally you would like to reduce his winrate in low ELO but maintain his current state in high ELO, which can be found in [this post]( https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/upj64E0i-quick-gameplay-thoughts-august-10?comment=001d0000). Please do not misunderstand my post, i am not suggesting that Yorick does not need a nerf. Instead, i am suggesting that if he is dealing too much damage than there are other ways of handling it than what is currently on PBE. One key thing that I am afraid Riot is missing is that Yorick as a champion effectively teaches the player how to play the game. He rewards you for last hitting, teaches you to stay in lane long enough to get the tower (objective) and also heavily rewards the player that plays him as a split-pusher to take global objectives. These are skills that low ELO players will often overlook, and as a consequence, he will always maintain a high winrate in the lower brackets purely because the Yorick’s opponent will not have the guided direction that the Yorick player will have. In fact, I am especially worried that the proposed changes will not affect Yorick’s winrate at low ELO ranges at all – but will instead gut his high ELO winrate and viability. Now onto the PBE changes, there has been a reduction in his per level AD gain to his Mist Walkers – in particularly around levels 6 to 9 – this value peaks at 12 less AD per ghoul (48 overall). Using sources such as [League of Graphs](https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/rankings/game-durations), you can clearly see that the game duration for low ELO ranges around [30 minutes](https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/rankings/game-durations) on average whereas the high ELO games usually sit around [26-27 minutes](https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/rankings/game-durations). This effectively means that the implemented change will be less likely to impact on low ELO games, since they are more likely to get to the point of the game where the difference evens out. Unfortunately, it also means that it will impact high ELO games because as they have a lower average game timer, there will be an emphasis on the point of the game where Yorick's Mist Walkers are taking the hardest hit from the nerfs. I truly believe that these nerfs are in the wrong direction and would like to put some suggestions for consideration. These suggestions are outlined in my reddit post which is current on the front page, as well as another post written by another Yorick main. [Reddit post One](https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/99vaig/increasing_the_click_box_on_yoricks_mist_walkers/) [Reddit Post Two](https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/99wqhi/yorick_ghouls_at_20_base_damage_of_release/) If the intention is to lower his winrate in low ELO games without affecting his performance in high ELO, then perhaps: * **Lower his Mist Walkers base damage, increase their AD ratio.** This will reward Yorick players who play well and get an experience lead and/or invest into damage items. The raw damage will not be as high and instead you will have to buy damage to deal damage. If they invest into the damage items, they will be less tank and therefore easier to deal with. Finding a way to give them a higher base AD but instead making them scale off bonus AD would be a good starting point. The second reddit post linked had the idea of the Ghouls having a base attack damage of 15 while maintaining their current live values of per level bonus +3/+5/+10, but instead of a total attack damage scaling, give them a 50% bonus attack damage. * **Reimburse the damage nerf somewhere else onto his kit. **If the AI having heavier damage output is an issue, then perhaps adding it onto his Q or E ability will be a healthy change for the game. Higher ELO players are more likely to land skillshots and better use their spells, so rewarding those players with extra damage by landing his E is a good change in that regard. * **Increase the size of the Mist Walkers click-box.** As the purpose of the reddit post, many players find them difficult to click on which can cause them to click the ground and take unnecessary damage as a result. The Mist Walkers also give 5 gold per kill, so the player should be actively rewarded by killing the Mist Walkers whenever they are summoned. Not everyone that plays league of legends uses attack move, so this is a problem. I would like to know your thoughts on our suggestions, your reasoning behind the proposed nerfs on PBE and your further intentions with our beloved gravedigger. Thanks for reading, Ninetales
Meddler (NA)
: Yorick we'll be nerfing Ghoul damage, primarily between levels 2 and 7. That was chosen as a target given AI controlled minions tend to perform noticeably stronger at low/average MMR than high, given their effectiveness doesn't scale as much as other parts of a champion's kit, while counterplay against them does. Damage is then the same by 18. Garen I believe we're cutting Q rank up damage (30-150 instead of 30-170). I'll double check, but I don't think there's a low MMR target in there, instead just a slight power reduction via less upfront damage.
Is there going to be any shift in power, for example giving him back some power elsewhere in the kit in exchange for the weaker early game? Or maybe making it break even to patch 8.16 values at an earlier level that 18? That's quite far into the game to be on-par with his mid game strength - considering there are four ghouls, he is losing a substantial amount of power (depending on the value of course). If i remember from the original post, you were interested in a power shift rather than having to resort to a flat nerf. Perhaps a slight damage increase to his E or Q base damage could help compensate for the heavy nerf.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: August 15
Hi Meddler, Since our discussion on the last Gameplay Thoughts post, have you come to any ideas with how you intend to handle Yorick for lower ELO ranges? Aside from the ones you touched on last week - is there anything more concrete or specific that you're considering? Thanks mate
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: August 10
Hi there Meddler, I am interested in how you intend to nerf Yorick for lower MMR games without impacting his ability to be useful in higher MMR games?
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: July 6
Any hints towards how you guys intend on managing the strength of Conqueror? Hitting the AD or true damage? Or both?
: Heya! Not Meddler, but I've been working on Sterak's with Lowbo. Yorick's the main champ on our radar for Sterak's compensation (if we decide to go through with the Base>Bonus change, it's still a bit contentious). Me and Yorick's designer (SolCrushed) have been talking about what changes we can make to open Yorick's ability to itemize offensively when it makes sense. Won't go into details because it's all very speculative still, but we've got some options we're excited about it if Sterak's goes through. edit: Misspelled 'Lowbo' as 'Lobow,' rip.
That's amazing to hear, thank you so much. If you ever feel like you need a third ear, a whole bunch of us Yorick Enthusiasts at the Yorick Mains subreddit would love to help however we can. Thanks again!
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: May 30
Hey Meddler, Is there any talk about the future of yorick now that steraks is being gutted of its trinity combination? He loses out on roughly 100-190 damage every 1.5 seconds with that change, and as he has no bonus AD scalings, the changes do not benefit him in any way.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: May 23
Hi Meddler, Any comments on the state of Yorick and your proposed changes to the steraks + trinity combination? Changing it from base AD to bonus AD will be one of the biggest indirect nerfs to Yorick that's ever happened. -150 damage every 1.5 seconds is a huge amount of damage output reduced, especially when he has no bonus AD ratios to benefit from the new change... he effectively gains nothing but outright nerfs with the changes.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: May 11
Hi Meddler, If there are changes to the interaction between Steraks and Trinity Force, will Yorick receive compensation? If you recall, he was nerfed due to the 'overly strong synergy with the item combination'. Also, is there a possibility that our ghouls can get some damage early game? It's very unfun to sit at tower for 20 minutes while my bot lane goes 0-10.
Meddler (NA)
: Quick Gameplay Thoughts: May 2
Hi Meddler, i'm back with my weekly Yorick query. How is the overview of Steraks and trinity force looking? And if you intend on nerfing the two, will Yorick receive compensation buffs since he received a recent nerf since according to your data, he was using the combination of items too well?
: I recently talked about them with their original designer, Wrekz, and he had some thoughts as to how to get them to a more enjoyable experience. On his list of suggestions, he suggested stuff like (straight from the proposal he sent me): * Generally making marks a bit easier to acquire, but a bit less powerful per mark. * Marks being able to spawn in either jungle, rather than only the opponents'. * Reducing mark warm-up time on enemy champions to try and get a cleaner balance between champion and jungle marks. * Removing W -> Q interaction and just having Q's cooldown reduced when it hits a champion or monster. * Increasing W radius to let Wolf feel more useful instead of it being primarily a mobility enabler. * Or some other effect to accomplish the same goal of making Wolf feel more useful. * Possibly just base 550 range instead of the increasing range with marks. * If the above are a too powerful, probably some base stat or damage nerfs here and there. I'm mostly open to stuff like this being tested, though there's a lot going on here, so it could take some time to validate. If we felt more confident there was a specific kind of work that would be exciting to Kindred players as well as a pretty clear path forward, that would increase the likelihood we would take on the work. We get a lot of requests to do these champ readjustments, so frequently it's a matter of when there's resources to do it more-so than a desire to test something out. I (and others on the design teams) do tend to love these types of explorations, however, so when we do have that clearer goal to go chase, it's usually possible to get someone on board with going for it.
Hi Meddler, Challenger Yorick player here. Is there any looking into perhaps reverting the recent 3 base damage nerfs to Yorick? Ultimately, his win-rate has plummeted since the 'spike' of 58% during the release of the new runes, where he is now barely sitting above 49% in platinum and diamond (using lolalytics). The new conqueror keystone has only enforced his worst match-ups to be brought back into the top lane, such as jax fiora tryndamere, who all have the highest pick rate amongst all top lane champions. Every champion got heavy amounts of base damage to accommodate runes, but Yorick's was taken away because he also builds trinity force. There are plenty of champions that can first item trinity force if they wanted to, i don't see why it was needed to be removed in the first place. For the sake of being fair and even, why was it not considered to remove the 3 AD from BASE damage and introduce it as BONUS DAMAGE as you have performed on champions like Rammus who had bonus attack speed at level one. This way the AD doesn't affect his trinity force and Steraks Gage - to combat the issue that you targetted - but still remains fair for all Yorick players in season 8. Thanks, Ninetales
Meddler (NA)
: It's all good, I'm used to them and have no plans to talk less :) I do sympathize with people who see work being talked about for champions they like that seems to get delayed repeatedly while others get worked on quicker. Sometimes not in the mood to ignore how that feedback's delivered is all.
Any plans on talking more about Yorick's current state and maybe the undo-ing of his recent base damage nerfs? Surely your data shows similar to the websites available to the public that his winrate in ranges above platinum is bordering 50% and below. Especially after continuous nerfs to rune paths that he often invests in from the top lane (resolve) and the resurrection of many top lane champions through the use of the new conqueror keystone, he is not in a good place and any person that plays the champion knows it.


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